Ludia Forums

Actually Balancing Resilients

Ok, I know what you’re thinking: just make resilient attacks precise instead of removing dodge. It’s the argument we’ve all heard hundreds of times by now if you’ve kept up with the resilient attack debate. I’m sure many of us believe that this still needs fixing (those cunning buffs weren’t nearly enough), and many of us probably already have a preferred fix. But hear me out, this post is unlike any resilient-attack post you’ve seen before.

I’ve personally found myself torn between both sides of the resilient debate. I understand the argument that the move simply does too much for how common it is (specifically referring to dodge removal), but I also came to understand the key role that dodge removal plays in helping resilients fulfill their job as the counters for dodgers. So I’ve come up with a new compromise that I think everyone can be happy with (my apologies if someone has suggested this before).

The basic principle is that while there can be multiple counters for a class of dinosaurs (cunning, resilient, and fierce), no one move should incorporate too many of these at once. For example, both DoT and Shield Break counter resilients, but no one move incorporates both at once (rending gets close, but those are pretty rare). So while cunnings are countered by distraction cleansing, dodge removal, and deceleration, no one move should do all of these at once. But resilient attacks currently do exactly this. So my proposal essentially splits resilient attacks into two classes of move, one focusing on distraction cleansing and deceleration, and the other focusing on deceleration and dodge removal.

To start, as many people have suggested, every resilient attack would now be precise instead, essentially being the same as superiority strike, with the addition of removing speedup like the current resilient attacks. In fact, it could even keep the superiority icons, since they have the same effects. I kept the “resilient” name, because this would be the main class of move used by resilient creatures.

For consistency, all current superiority strikes/impacts would change to resilient, but this is literally a change in name only. So for the rest of this post, WHEN YOU SEE “RESILIENT” THINK “SUPERIORITY”. These attacks being precise is also debatable, you’ll have to let me know after you read the rest of the post. I also think that superior vulnerability, shielded decelerating strike, and devestation should all lose precise (EDIT: our consensus now is that only Devastation would lose precise out of all of these).

Now, what about dodge removal? The idea here is to designate a class of resilient dinos to specifically deal with dodge, using a new class of move. For this, I have in mind the Stegosaurs. Besides sometimes having decelerating counters, the only unique thing they have going for them is group decelerating attacks, which isn’t even unique - they share this with Sauropods. Ankylosaurs and turtles have vulnerability and shields. Ceratopsians have (swap in) stuns and dig in. Hadrosaurs have heals. My proposal would give stegosaurs their own niche again. The proposal would revive thagomizers as a redesigned class of move:

(Lesser/Greater) Thagomizer OR Raking Decelerating Strike/Impact/Rampage (I tend to prefer the later, because it’s more universal):

It would have an additional delay of 1 for the rampage. That way you can’t remove dodge every turn. Again, this would be subject to change. Notice that this does NOT cleanse distraction, so they cannot counter every cunning option at once. However, most of the dinos recieving this move would also have a resilient attack to cleanse distraction. The icons for this move could use the current resilient icons, since these reference deceleration and dodge removal, but not distraction cleansing. Because of this, Medium Resilient Counter-Attack could join the ranks of these moves, since it also doesn’t cleanse distraction. I’ve included an updated renamed version of this move as well.

Now, which dinos would receive these moves, and what would their movesets look like? Well, here they are, organized by rarity starting with commons (changes in italics). I’ve also included stegosaurs and their hybrids that DON’T receive these moves, with explanations as to why (these have NOT received images, since they haven’t changed). I tried to keep the attack strength the same as the move they replace, but these too are subject to change. If one of these dinos seems too strong or too weak, let me know, and we could change some other attributes to balance it.

Miragaia
No change.

Miragaia never had any resilient attacks, group decelerating attacks, or thagomizers, so I kept it’s moveset the same.

Stegosaurus

I can’t be the only one bothered by the fact that Stegosaurus and Apatosaurus have the exact same moveset, right? I also gave it an impact instead of a strike, for a bit more power.

Tuojiangosaurus

I considered giving it rampage instead of precise rampage, since it’s other attacks both are. Decelerating Rampage is also an option, but probably superfluous.This is a minor difference subject to change though. I also considered giving it an impact instead of Raking Decelerating Strike/Lesser Thagomizer.

Wuerhosaurus

Kentrosaurus

This is another one that I considered giving Thagomizer/Raking Decelerating Impact instead, or maybe even Greater Thagomizer/Raking Decelerating Rampage.

Stegoceratops

Loses 1 turn deceleration in exchange for dodge removal. I think that’s a fair trade.

Ankytrosaurus

Medium Raking Decelerating Counter (aka Medium Countering Thagomizer) is identical to Medium Resilient Counter-Attack, but this name would fit better since it doesn’t cleanse distraction but does remove dodge (just like the new Thagomizers/Raking Decelerating attacks).

Carnotarkus

I know plenty of people would be happy to see a Tarkus buff.

Dsungaia

Monostegotops

I also made it Resilient-Cunning, because let’s be honest, that’s what it should be anyway.

Stegodeus

Resilient Rampage would need a new icon. I re-used the Superiority Impact icon here, but it needs one for a rampage.

Diorajasaur

I went back and forth on whether to give DIO Resilient Rampage or Greater Thagomizer/Raking Decelerating Rampage. Both would be a nerf to what it is now, and it doesn’t really need one. I ultimately went for the former, since it already has a raking counter. Additionally, Resilient Rampage still hits precise, but Greater Thagomizer/Raking Decelerating Rampage does not cleanse distraction, so keeping Resilient Rampage is by far the smaller nerf. Another option might be to give it Medium Raking Decelerating Counter, but that might conflict with Tryko…

Trykosaurus

This might be my personal favorite change of them all. But apparently it’s also the most controversial. It gives Tryko it’s signature counter back, but also makes it so that it can no longer cleanse distraction, which is what many people seemed to have a problem with in the first place. To compensate, I nerfed it’s attack down to 1500, but again it’s stats could be altered to balance it.

Tuoramoloch

I didn’t change anything about Tuoramoloch, because it’s more of a dedicated healer than a dodge remover or decelerator. I did change the name of Group Superiority to Group Resilient Strike to match all Superiority Moves becoming the new Resilient moves.

And those are the changes! Thank you for reading. This doesn’t remove dodge removal from resilients entirely, but instead religates it to just a few dinos per class. I’m very curious what everyone thinks, so I would appreciate it if you could fill out the poll below. I also more than welcome you to share your thoughts in the comments. And hey, if people like this and we get enough support, maybe Ludia can add this before 3.0 comes out!

Which opinion best describes how you feel about the proposed changes?

  • It’s awesome, no changes needed!
  • I like it, but a few changes would be needed (please describe below).
  • It’s ok, but many changes would be needed (please describe below)
  • It’s an interesting idea, but doesn’t need to be added to the game.
  • I don’t really like it. Resilient needs balance, but not like this.
  • I don’t like it. Resilients are fine how they are!

0 voters

Which name do you prefer?

  • Lesser/Normal(no name)/Greater Thagomizer
  • Raking Decelerating Strike/Impact/Rampage
  • Other (please comment below)

0 voters

After I originally posted this, several of us discussed the possibility of Rhinos getting Raking Decelerating attacks as well, replacing their resilient attacks. The reason is to increase the number of dodge removers among resilients. Rhinos would be high attack dodge-removing, decelerating, shielding, taunting tanks. While they could remove dodge, they would not have distraction removal options, setting them apart from the Stegosaurs which can. To compensate for this, they would have 50% distraction resistance, and would receive minor attack buffs across the board (values listed below subject to change). Another option would be to give them 75% distraction resistance, or even distraction immunity, but then I wouldn’t give them attack buffs. I’m actually coming to favor distraction immunity instead of resistance + attack buffs, but you all will have to let me know which you would prefer. Here is what I came up with for movesets (unless listed below, assume stats and resistances are unchanged):

Brontotherium
Distraction Resistance (50%)
Attack 1200 -> 1400

Elasmotherium
Distraction Resistance 50%
Attack 1300 -> 1500

Brontolasmus
Distraction Resistance 50%
Attack 1300 -> 1500

Could have slightly less attack, since it has two rampages.

Woolly Rhino
Distraction Resistance 50%
Attack 1500 -> 1600

Already has a fairly high attack. 1500 might honestly be fine.

Keratoporcus

Fierce Rampage replaced by Raking Decelerating Rampage. This way, Keratoporcus inherents SOMETHING from it’s resilient ancestry (becoming fierce-resilient). It’s mostly fierce though, so no attack buffs or distraction resistance for you! This one could honestly stay unchanged though, it’s just an idea.

Mammotherium
Distraction Resistance 50%
Attack 1500 -> 1600

Again, it’s attack is already quite high, and it has a ferocious strike to help with that. I would consider giving it just the distraction resistance with no attack buff.

Mammolania
Distraction Resistance 50%
Attack 1000 > 1200

I gave it a small attack buff. Again, the attack buff is subject to change. I don’t want to make it too strong against non-dodgers and fierce creatures, for example.

Monolorhino
I chose not to change Monolorhino. It’s Rhino ancestry would explain where it got Definite Impact from though.

Do you think Rhinos should have Raking Decelerating Attacks too? Please explain your answer in the comments below.

  • Yes, absolutely!
  • Yes, with some caveats.
  • No, they should not.

0 voters

6 Likes

Absolutely no slowing counter on Tryko. It being able to swap in speedsters like Erlidom and Orion and autowin was absolutely ridiculous. No thanks.

1 Like

I have to disagree, that was what made it unique. There were a lot of interesting strategies you could do with it. In 2.1 it’s just a diet Maxima. I would rather nerf the attack even further than lose that counter. And don’t forget that it can be fully distracted now.

2 Likes

I would rather have something be boring than overpowered. No slowing counter; cunning dinos already struggle enough.

I’m not sure, I think looking into 2.1, we’re going to want all of the Orion counters we can get. To me it never felt as overpowered as Maxima on 2.0, and that counter was the only thing that gave it an edge in a lot of situations.

2 Likes

BTW Erlidominus almost beats Tryko if Tryko swaps into a standard Distracting Impact and doesn’t go for IIT turn 2. And revenge cloaked, Erlidom obliterates Tryko with a rampage OR distracting impact. I’ll admit that it has a great matchup against Erlidom. But don’t forget that all resilients besides the ones listed above would lose their ability to remove dodge and cloak, so we’re going to be dealing with some VERY powerful revenge cloak rampages. So again, while it is a bad matchup for Erlidominus, that isn’t necessarily a bad thing…

1 Like

The slowing counter with tryko is what broke him… it’s to powerful a move for a passive move… the only reason Tryko wasn’t complained about as much as max was cause Max beat tryko.

I’ve literally 3-0 teams with 3 speedsters with tryko this patch because of the passive slow.

Is Tryko not supposed to counter cunning though? And again, allowing it to be distracted cuts it’s attack down by a LOT. It SHOULD be winning matchups against cunnings most of the time, thats the point of the whole cunning-fierce-resilient system.

2 Likes

Tryko beats cunning without a counter slow… he did it for 2 years without a slowing move at all. Will be doing it next patch just fine.

This game is at its best from a stand point when their is counter play… ie guess the proper moves… stuff like counters that slow. Removes counter play.

1 Like

I think the changes to resilient attacks would make cunnings a lot better than you think. Stuff like Erlidom isn’t great now, but it will be once it can actually pull off it’s cloak. And then we’re going to need counters like Tryko, with the slow. And it would still have counters. Magna would destroy it, and I bet Tenonto would too. I deliberately gave it no distraction cleansing abilities with this counterplay in mind.

1 Like

The main reasons tenoto loses that match up right now is the slowing counter. Without it tenoto should win.

You are aware that tryko had no good matchups against cunnings pre-2.0 because it couldn’t cleanse distract or use speed control. It’s weakness was cunning because all of the distraction kept it’s damage down

2 Likes

I just checked and Tenonto beats Tryko with the changes I proposed, if it starts with distracting impact. Again, that distraction helps a lot! It survives with around 1400 hp, which seems fair to me. I didn’t even try cleansing the slow with healing either.

1 Like

Not really, it’s cause Tryko can remove distraction and then hit with the rampage

1 Like

If tenoto wasn’t slowed himself his rampage would kill tryko before he could rampage.

Even in 1.14 what were the cunning tyrants? Erli, quetz. Indo g2

Giving tryko a passive that takes away one of cunning’s main traits is simply not needed.

I mean, it’s designed to counter cunnings. Something that wins against the class it’s supposed to but still has counters sounds good to me. Even with getting the DSR off, Tenonto still has a better matchup against Tryko than Magna has against Maxima right now, and people like to call Magna a Maxima counter still.

And you can’t forget the giant buff that dodgers get from most resilients not being able to remove it. I would even be ok with making the new Resilient attacks not precise if that’s what it took to make the game balanced in that regard.

And Monolometerodon beats the new Tryko too, tack that one onto the list of counters.

1 Like

Erlidom lost to tryko because then he couldn’t distract, and Orion shouldn’t be used against tryko, indo2 used lots of distraction to soften tryko up before going for the kill

Most traditional cunnings would’ve beaten tryko.

Rhinex , Utahsino, Dilorano, Dilorach, Vexus, Spyx, Alloraptor, and even Monolorhino could beat Tryko

These are the ones where there aren’t lots of mind games

2 Likes

Yeah Alloraptor would work wonders against the new Tryko, too

2 Likes

My stance is this… stunning, distracting, slowing etc… shouldn’t be used as passive moves just as things that negate them shouldnt be either.

Like when Ludia said for max use your move to cleanse distractions. And that’s how I feel a slow should be… wanna slow something use a move with a cool down. It’s allows for play and counter play. Giving it an auto slow gives it to strong an advantage against the things that should counter it. Tenoto is a resilient hybrid itself. But what about more pure fierce creatures like Thor and little brother… Tryko should not be able to passively slow it’s counters.

Cause that’s cunning’s biggest problem right now… not that resilient wrecks them but that resilient also has a lot of winnable match ups against fierce.

The counter was never what caused It to be unbalanced, It was the distraction cleansing ability.

1 Like