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All Fierce Creatures Should Gain Resistance/Immunity to Vulnerability

Unpopular Opinion: All Fierce Creatures Should Gain Resistance/Immunity to Vulnerability

With the class system, fierce should be able to counter resilient, so why did Ludia nerf the vulnerability resistance of multiple fierce creatures with the resilient change?

A quick correction would be nice: give complete or at least partial resistance to vulnerability for all fierce creatures.

Why?

Fierce Strike/Impact/Rampage cleanses vulnerability but fierce creatures are intended to be faster than tanky bruisers like the towers, lux, mammo, etc. so in reality, the ability to cleanse vulnerability before the negative effect is even dealt is, frankly, useless. There is literally no reason I can think of that a Hadros Lux (regardless of how boosted it is) should be able to deal vulnerability with its counter and then proceed to insta-kill a fierce with rampage. :man_shrugging::man_shrugging:

13 Likes

I don’t think it’s that unpopular an opinion actually. I would be okay with it if Fierce had some way to survive being Slower.

Since that’s not the case, there’s absolutely no reason for Resilients to be able to deal 50% more damage to the creatures that are supposed to counter them. Especially if they already did too much damage before the patch (Hadros and Cera).

11 Likes

Or give resilients decel back and make fierce dinos immune to decel instead. They can already cleanse vulnerability anyway.

8 Likes

Why not both?

3 Likes

the problem with that idea is that so many people are averse to the notion that high damage chompers should gain immunity to deceleration… with resilients that have damage outputs as high as Lux and Magnus, chompers are usually able to use a single impact off and then proceed to get decelerated and killed with a rampage

Deceleration Resistance might be a good compromise for most of them, perhaps 50-75%. But I think that Deceleration immunity alone means that a team full of Resilients either needs to invest in speed boosts, meaning that they can’t build health or damage, or they have to include cunnings, thereby addressing the pre-2.9 problem of Cunnings being underepresented and Resilients being overrepresented

5 Likes

Anything other than 100% decel resistance would be close to useless for relatively slow fierce creatures. Many are already slower than resilients, but even If they are faster, It won’t be by much, so they will still lose the speed advantage. Or they would need an absurd speed investment, and that would not be the way to go since It encorages nitro boosting.

4 Likes

Well not everything is going to be a perfect counter. I agree that chompers probably shouldn’t have decel immunity (instead, their high HP should be enough to carry them through), but there are ways to make this work. For one, stuff like Hadros or Magnus should probably have their damage output reduced anyway, so they can’t kill bulky chompers in two hits. Additionally, there’s no reason why most other fierce dinos (Spinosaurs, Pterosaurs, crocs, etc.) shouldn’t be immune to decel. It would also help if most fierce dinos were faster than most resilients to begin with.

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They are averse to the Idea because of speed boosts. If speed boosts were reworked to not allow slow fierce or resilients being able to outspeed fast cunnings, no one would be worried since cunnings wouldn’t lose hp and damage investment from having to overly invest in speed because of nitro chompers. Mortem having decel resistance never made It OP, just made It viable. The only unbalanced aspect of Mortem is cleansing impact. Since Mortem was considered better than Thor on the last update and almost no one complained about its decel immunity, i find It weird that people are so averse to the Idea of other simillar chompers having It too. Not that all chompers should instantly receive slow immunity, but the ones that aren’t need another way to make sure they properly counter resilients. Being bulky enough to survive any 2 hits from resilients also works. But i do believe slow immunity should be way more common on fierce than It is now.

8 Likes

I’d be fine with no deceleration immunity for chompers (to discourage nitro-boosting) but then 4800 health for chompers should be the norm, 4500 and 4200 (which is currently is) simply isn’t enough in most cases to tank two rampages from the towers/lux/cera

5 Likes

I think the boost system should be reworked so that nitro boosting is no longer possible. And If It is possible, at least not in a way that devalues cunnings. One way would be to increase the speed ceiling. Instead of 132, max speed in the game could be 152( just and exemple, haven’t done any calcs on this). Velociraptor would have 152 speed and all other cunnings would follow from that number down(magna and spyx would be 148). Resilient and fierce keep their current speeds. Just an idea that still needs a lot of fleahing out, but i think it’s the way to go If done right. It’s an entirely different discussion but i feel it’s an essential part of solving the class system imbalance that was never found any longlasting solution. With that solved there could be more focus in actually reworking fierce creatures without any fear of nitro boosting.
Then we could have different fierce, some immune to deceleration and others not but much more bulky, along with that make them faster than resilients since nitro boosting would be no longer an issue.

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I honestly don’t think that nitro-boosting is a problem. A cunning with 128 Speed only needs 10 Speed boosts to guarantee that it outspeeds the fastest Mortem or Thor, with 20 more boosts that it can spread across the Health and Attack Stats. A Nitro Chomper is forced to pay both a Health and a Attack tax, only to end up being walled by Dodge and Distraction (sometimes at the same time) anyway. Add in the fact that several recent Cunnings have also been given priority moves to further guarantee that they don’t get outsped, and I start to see Nitro Chompers as more of a liability.

Further, allowing Cunnings to overinvest in HP or Damage because they don’t need the speed investment to guarantee that they outspeed Fierce or Resilient creatures will likely result in Cunnings that have an overabundance of damage or Health.

3 Likes

people don’t know that fierce dinos can cleanse vulnerability?

If a creature with Resilient Counter is slower than a Fierce creature, then it gets a Vulnerability empowered attack THAT turn because vulnerability was applied after the Fierce attack. If it’s faster, then it gets a Vulnerability empowered attack before the Fierce creature can cleanse. A faster Fierce who won’t be able to cleanse until the next attack is also susceptible to a Swap-in attack, boosted by the Vulnerable that is hasn’t been able to cleanse yet.

None of these problems are fixed by the fact that Fierce moves cleanse Vulnerable, which was acknowledged in the original post.

6 Likes

10 speed boosts is still a good chunk from damage and hp. I agree that nitro boosting is probably not the most optimal build overall, but even so It can lead to some imbalance against cunnings since they become too frail with so much speed investment. Resilients usually don’t need speed to have a good build. And i mean, resilients and fierce are able to overinvest in hp and damage and get pretty strong builds without too much loss, so why shouldn’t cunnings be able to do the same?
I think speed boosts shouldn’t favor a class over the other, but allow some diversity while still keeping the classes in equal footing.
But you do raise a fair point, i could be wrong and the issue isn’t as big as i feel It is. Still, the fact that people are aversed to giving chompers higher speed and decel immunity ( which is weird since cunnings won’t be slowing them anyways) because they are worried about nitro boosting shows that nitro boosting may be a hindrance to properly reworking/ buffing fierce creatures. Of course, there’s probably other ways around that. Resilients could be made much slower than they are now so fierce wouldn’t need a speed buff in most cases. That way fierce are made faster than resilients without exarcebating nitro boosting.

3 Likes

A max HP-boosted Chomper, such as Mortem or Thor, (8200 HP) with 10 boosts in Attack (~3000 Attack), would only be able to deal ~2250 damage on turn 1 with distraction alone (Ignoring Cleansing Impact, which needs to be removed and replaced with something more fitting of such a High Damage Fierce), 1485 damage with Dodge, and 742 damage with both.

An Erlikospyx with 12 attack boosts (2370 Attack) deals 8295 damage across 2 turns without Revenge, while still having enough HP without any health boosts. The same is true of other Cunnings,

Magnapyritor can kill this same hypothetical Chomper in 2 turns with 14 Attack boosts (2379), but can also reliably kill it in 3 turns with any number of attack boosts greater than 2 (1806 Attack).

Poukandactylus can kill this Hypothetical Chomper in 2 turns with 10 attack boosts (1823 Attack).

This is just a small list. The point being made is that these Cunnings, while investing 10 boosts minimum into speed to counter a potential Nitro Chomper, can still achieve enough damage to kill the highest possible HP your average Chomper can have (Often with boosts to spare). If I were to switch the stats around and pump up attack to maximum levels, then all that would be required would be less Attack investment and more HP investment to achieve the same results. Cunnings are more than strong enough as they are to handle any Fierce without Cleansing access to high damage cleansing moves.

Now imagine the damage or durability that these same Cunnings could have if they didn’t have to allocate 10 boosts into speed, considering they’re strong enough to deal this much damage in 2 turns. That’s why I’m fearful of buffing the speed of the class that focuses on dealing High Damage before their opponent gets a turn.

1 Like

then that’s a problem caused by the resilient counter attack and damage SIAs
If something needs to change it’s the resilient counter not giving vulnerability and the swaps in damage that we all know are broken
btw sorry for my bad english hope I explain it right

I agree that it’s the main source of the problem. Simply put, however, I don’t see much value in allowing Resilients to amplify their damage vs the creatures that are supposed to counter them.

Vulnerable resist I think is important, to prevent Fierce Creatures from being bursted by Resilients that already have higher HP. Mortem lost all of it’s Vulnerability Resist and now it can’t survive against most of the Resilient roster, even with the ability to cleanse Vulnerable.

2 Likes

Its a good idea but all fierce attacjs cleanse vurnability. Fierce Strike, fierce impact, fierce Rampage. They all cleanse vurnability, so i dont see this idea coming in the near furure

The reason is because Fierce can cleanse vulnerability after they attack which in it itself is pretty flawed, means all Arena fierce must be slower to prevent them from gaining vulnerability, but even that is flawed with resilient counter gaining vulnerability now. So Fierce lose either way, the counter definitely needs working on because at the moment, it removing Dodge/Cloak and applying vulnerability is pretty dumb. It makes a lot of other moves which apply vulnerability look pretty worthless now.

All they need to do was let Resilient moves just cleanse distraction and remove cleansing strike/impact off certain creatures, looking at you Mortem.