Class System needs to be revised and looked at

It has been established that there is a rock-paper-scissors system now, where Cunning beats Fierce, Fierce beats Resilient, Resilient beats Cunning, and Wild Cards have the potential for all.

However, there is a lot of controversy on actual creature classes. For example:
-Spinonyx is classified as Cunning Fierce. One may argue that Precise Rampage is considered Cunning. But this is factually false, as Precise Rampage does nothing to assist in defeating Fierce creatures. Precise Rampage is better classified as a Resilient move.

-Phorusrhacids are classified as Cunning. However, a more accurate classification would be Cunning Resilient. Raking Claws does nothing to help in defeating Fierce creatures, the only one being the two Indominus Rexes with their Cloak, and even then, they shouldn’t be fighting such powerful adversaries. Raking Claws directly counters Cunning, specifically, the Evasion department. Once again, Raking Claws is best defined as a Resilient move.

-Sarcorixis is classified as Resilient. Ferocity is a huge part of its play-style, and Ferocity is inherently Fierce, as it plays no part in taking down Cunning. Stun could also be considered a class-less move category, as plenty of Fierce creatures do have Stun, and lots of Cunning creatures are Resistant to Stun. A better classification for Sarcorixis is Fierce Resilient, or even Wild Card.

There are a lot more issues, such as some counter attackers being defined as fully Resilient despite bearing a fierce category counter attack (which is a MAIN part of their play-style). If you can find any other mistakes in the class system, please drop them in the comments, there’s too much controversy stemming from this issue, and it’s misleading people into thinking some moves belong to a certain class despite that move not assisting in beating said class in the rock-paper-scissors scenario.

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presice pounce isnt resilient
erlikosaurus has presice rmpg yet its cunning
so presice moves should be wild-card

Grylenken vs Indom
Kelenken vs indom g2
these are both believable matches

cough all medium theropods cough

correction: many fierce creatures with resilient roots have stun

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There are a few misconceptions you made that only prove my point further:
-I stated that because of the way classes are poorly done, that people get classes and moves confused. Precise Rampage should not be Wild Card, it should be strictly be Resilient. Precise Pounce should also be considered Cunning Resilient. My entire point was that people make misconceptions about what class moves should be, because they are incorrectly places on certain creature classes. You saying that “Erlikosaurus has Precise Rampage, but is Cunning” just proves me correct. Precise Rampage doesn’t help in beating Fierce, and directly counters Cunning. Therefore, Precise Rampage should be classified as Resilient.

-Grylenken vs Indom is the only conceivable matchup. Kelenken shouldn’t be facing Indominus Rex Gen 2 all that often, and even then, it’s not likely to win even with the Raking Claws.

-Yes, just about all Medium Theropods lol.

-Yes, many Fierce with Resilient Roots have Stun, however, this doesn’t prove your point any further, as many Cunning creatures have Stun resistance without having Resilient Roots. The resistance to Stun doesn’t seem to be locked within a singular class, and thus could be considered more of a Wild Card trait. There’s also the fact that Gryposuchus has Stun and is entirely Fierce.

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If is resilient. The creature doesn’t choose what class the move is, the move chooses the class of the creature. Precise abilities only effect cunning creatures because cunning creatures only have dodging abilities, therefore it’s a resilient ability.

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To be more precise (haha), Precise Pounce is a Cunning Resilient

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I’ve got a whole list of em: Some Classes are Wrong. My system breaks abilities into two “tiers” of association with a particular class, so that you can get things like Woolly Mammoth having persistent ferocious strike without it being fierce.

I also agree on phorusrhocids, although I’m more in the camp of them staying as pure cunnings and losing Raking Claws for something else.

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Cloak is a part-Cunning move, so you’re not helping your point there

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Yes! Exactly, they really need to stop with these confusing typings. They either need to change the moves of the creatures, or just change their types themselves. Cunning’s definitely shouldn’t have precise moves as it just helps them destroy their own class and not what they’re supposed to counter. The stuns and stun resistances are really just remnants from pre 2.0 times but they are definitely wildcard abilities as they counter all classes(just like nullifying does).

Nice shameless plug @Mudkipz :crazy_face:

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Lol I have to draw attention to that post somehow, I put a lot of work into it! And it’s applicable.

I’m ok if some cunning users have precise, but it shouldn’t be given out too much, since precise isn’t a cunning ability (or at least it shouldn’t be).

I can see stun being wild card. It happens to be mostly on or derived from resilients, but the same is true about nullify being mostly on cunnings even though its neutral as well. But with stun resistance being so random, wild card is a good fit for it. And it doesn’t change any of my proposed typings too much. In fact, as far as I can tell it only improves it (like allowing Smilocephalosaurus to remain a pure cunning instead of cunning-resilient).

The funniest part to me is that Diplovenator and Antarctovenators classes should be reversed, in my opinion. Diplovenator has two anti-dodge moves, which make a decent argument for it having resilient traits (making it a wild card), but it’s Cunning-Fierce. Its not the best argument for being a wild card, but it’s still stronger than whatever Antarctovenator has. Antarctovenator has only cunning and fierce abilities (besides nullify, which if anything can be argued to maybe be cunning, but certainly isn’t resilient), and yet it is a wild card when it should be a Cunning-Fierce, at least based on its moves. And it has a resilient ancestor (two, counting Concavenator), so it SHOULD be the wild card here! And yet…
I would just change the counters: just give Diplovenator Defense shattering counter, and Antarctovenator Decelerating counter (like Antarctopelta), and the classes are fixed.

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Since this seems to be the current relevant post: here are the class/move changes that I think should be made:

Spionyx: Cunning-Fierce to Fierce-Resilient (two anti-dodge abilities should make it part resilient, not part cunning).

Carnotaurus: Wild Card to Fierce-Resilient

Diloranosaurus and Diloracheirus: Cunning to Resilient-Cunning (both have two healing moves)

Monostegotops: Wild Card to Resilient-Cunning (may swap distraction to cunning strike, as a slight bonus)

Nasutoceratops: Wild Card to Resilient (involves changing distraction to a different attack, for example superior vulnerability) OR Wild Card to Resilient-Cunning.

Carbotoceratops: Stays Resilient (but changes distraction to superior vulnerability or long Decelerating strike, or even plain old resilient strike) OR Resilient to Resilient-Cunning.

Diplodocus and Geminititan: Resilient to Fierce-Resilient (would prefer they stay pure resilient and lose shield break altogether, but I’m not sure how to rework it)

Indominus Rex and Indominus Rex Gen 2: Fierce to Cunning-Fierce (Cloak counts as a dodge move, even with the damage boost)

Indoraptor: Cunning-Fierce to Cunning (alternatively swapping APR back to DSR would allow it to remain a Cunning-Fierce, but I think it being a pure cunning fits. Maybe they could give it distracting piercing rampage?)

Majundaboa: Resilient to Fierce-Resilient

Sarcorixis: Resilient to Fierce-Resilient

Marsupial Lion: Fierce to Cunning-Fierce

Megalosuchus: Fierce-Resilient to Fierce (it only has one healing move!)

Pterovexus: Wild Card to Cunning-Fierce

Poukandactylus: Cunning-Fierce to Cunning

Tanycolagreus: Stays Wild Card (but swaps Definite Strike to Crafty Strike) OR Wild Card to Fierce.

Diplovenator: Stays Cunning-Fierce (but swaps Precise Shattering Counter to Defense shattering counter) OR Cunning-Fierce to Wild Card.

Antarctovenator: Stays Wild Card (but undergoes a moveset change, preferably changing Nullifying Counter to Decelerating Counter) OR Wild Card to Cunning-Fierce.

Although not required the Terror Birds should probably lose their Raking Claws for something else. Evasive Rampage? Speedup Rampage? Pounce? Something like that.

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I agree with you @Mudkipz but keep in mind that stats and resistances also define which class a creature is, tany is again a good example. Its moveset is something in between wildcard and fierce-resilient but its stats abd resistance are 100% cunning, thus making it a TRUE wildcard

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A bit, but less so in my opinion. We think all cunnings need to be fast, but what about Eremotherium? The stats are definitely stereotypes for each class, but are too limiting if we follow them exactly. Besides, there’s a lot of overlap: how can we tell where “resilient” hp ends and “Fierce” begins when some fierce have higher hp than some resilients? Even Erlikospyx has higher HP than many resilients, but calling it fierce or resilient to explain this does nothing to represent what it actually does. With move effects, it’s much easier to sort them into discrete categories.

Resistences are a bit more relevant, but only create more confusion if taken too seriously. I would say the best rule for them is that dinos can resist debuffs associated with their own class or the one they counter (like resilients and cunnings resisting distraction, or fierce and resilient resisting deceleration). So Tany would probably be fierce-resilient, since distraction immunity can be either cunning or resilient, and it already has another resilient trait in definite strike. We can say that resisting a debuff from one class puts a dino in another, but what about stuff like Secodontosaurus resisting distraction, or Erlidominus resisting deceleration? Or what about Eremotherium being immune to deceleration? Most resistances tend to match their class well enough, and like stats if we followed them too strictly it would create confusion and limit design possibilities too much.

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indom is pure fierce

Cloak dodges. That’s Cunning

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it is fast
it can get faster than a velociraptor

Even then, plenty of Resilient creatures counter it if played right, with the addition of shields

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Evading Claws
Evasive rmpg but deals rending dmg
50% rend

bc they dont want a sloth to be slow

Null is wildcard

There’s a difference between “this creature is fast” and “this creature can get fast”. Just because Eremotherium can become faster than Velociraptor does not make it a fast creature. At the end of the day, its Speed Increase can get nullified and it becomes the slow creature it is

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This argument alone is enough proof that these classes need to be looked at more closely and revised by Ludia

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They dodge and reduce damage

The only creatures with ferocity are fierce AND resilience. Diplotator is the only cunning. But you have mammoth hybrids, antarctopelta, and majungaboa for example