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Classes, families, and rebalancing in 2.0: would it could/should have been

Sigh…welp let’s gets started.

1)Now this is basically an article, (honestly by now I should ask game press to hire me) anyways if your don’t like reading that much I’ll leave a small summary at the bottom at #14 along with the polls so you get the short and sweet version otherwise here my idea on classes and families.
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                     <[THE BASICS]> 

2)Now to make this easy on you in the game there are two ways to classify dinos, classes or type and FAMILIES. Types/ classes is the newest system that came with 2.0 and is more like the rock-paper-scissors mechanic that many other games have. As of now technically only have three “confirmed” classes: Resilient, Cunning and Fierce the relationship between each one is below.

3)Now the unconfirmed group is technically jack of trades but mostly there not really jacks. (I will explain latter)The second way is families this is th more specific way of categorizing a creature or well a group of creatures. This was technically wasn’t a “new” feature as players had already seen similarly and familiarity between creatures, plus like the animations are sometimes the same so duh.

So you could categorize them like this: rarity —> class—> hybrid or non hybrid —> family.

Ex: Trykosaurus: unique, resilient-fierce, hybrid, large theropod.

4)Now what ludia did with families in 2.0 is cement each one into a role, this way you don’t have say all stegosaurs or creatures with that animation be slowers then just have a random one that can go thru armor with it counter and then just heal, now its all stegosaurs must slow and they cant break shields or bypass armor.

Anyway lets get into what ludia got just wrong when executing this in the update.


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    2.0 (What went wrong):

5) Besides the obvious - raid reward RNG, stegogod awful matchmaking, bad communication on multiple fronts, etc- the way families worked was also kinda badly done. Now remember like mentioned up above families were supposed to be ludias way of make the Rebooting the area by making sure creatures abilities and roles weren’t all over the place( now stegosaurus aren’t anti-tanks, speedsters dont counter tanks, and etc) and for the most part they did a very good job at it, like usual they failed in the end. Now again in concept seems fair if you have a raptor vs a sauropod then raptor will get a beat down and like wise sauropod vs rex; rex will have a tasty snack and then raptor will have its fun in rex vs raptor. The problem is they just cant make up there minds on if they want to follow there rules or not.

6)Examples come from out of p;lace creatures like the countering attacking theropods , who are supposed to be fierce creatures with shields, yet most of them even – non-hybrids-- have RESILIENT STRIKE? So then how are cunning creature gonna work against them if they cant be distracted and they cant break thru their shields? That just instantly breakers the system since they now not only counter resilient which they are supposed to but now they also counter there counters. Then you got stuff like Allosaurus, Puruaturus, and Grypolyth all fierce creature who all have cleansing base attacks meaning again distraction is useless as well as DoT. Which again just brakes the system. Again cleansing on fierce can be done right but it has to be done right and with limit( having a delay or long cooldown meaning they have to be wise on how they use it). If a fierce creature doesn’t have to fear a cunning creature then what the point of having cunning creatures to counter fierce since they do absolutely nothing to stop them? Another on I like to add is trysor specifically the new move it gained in 2.0, Refresh, now having a regen move on this thing makes sense as its part of the lineage and its gives it more survivability. No I’m fine with that, I’m more frustrated why the heck it gives it a 10% speed up like:
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7) Like its already a very fast chomper bordering on speedster speed but luckily faster speedster and nullifyers would keep it in line. Except not any more since it can just speed up bypassing all cunning creatures in speed and then one shot them…like come on ludia THINK THINGS THRU! USE COMMON SENSE for freaking stegod’s sake. On top of that there is also families who were made absolutely useless in PvP just case of the raid, like i mean not to cut it short but all the hadrosaurs became hot garbage in PvP like come on seriously if you really wanted them to be full on healers then give them a second, different kit for raids.
Then you go stuff like maxima, tryko and tenato who are absolutely broken and ugh…I think you all get the point. Ludia made the system and just implemented without making sure everyone falls in line or things had enough counters or if they would be good for anything else besides raids. I mean for stegogods sake you took 4 bleeders bleed away and then left all by thyla to be good against top tier tanks, I mean i love thyla but it should never be the only meta-bleeder in the whole game.

8)Another problem is both resilient itself and the distribution of said resilient moves. For one it destroys speedsters way to much it takes away not only speed increases, but cloak, while cleanseing distraction and then slowing the opponent in one move. Which is completely unfair to speedster who are left with like no options… reminds me of a move that cleansed, speed up, dodged and distracted destroying chompers and speedster yet most people said just learn to counter and now their complaining about a move that does the same but to a different class
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9)Setting the point aside the abundance of resilent moves but as well as basic slowing moves since those are also precise causing cunning to be phased out meaning there is nothing to keep fierce in check meaning its just fierce vs resilient all the time. Like (sigh) come on ludia, for once can you try things before releasing them or show some testers and see what they think. Or maybe hold more polls. Just saying, anyways, oh one last problem is that some aren’t just in family but I think its fine since they all basically do the same thing.

Let move on…


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                 how it should have been done 

10)I have prepared these graphs/ charts to show what each class contains and what each families role is:


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As you can see this gives each a role to each family and has each class its strengths and weaknesses. Now hybrids are a tricky subject but I think I’ve found a way to make sure they are diverse yet don’t rule out there class counters. Also I’m not gonna do more charts since like it takes forever so ill just list them below.

11)Now there are two groups of hybrids; Pure bred and Mixed hybrids
*Pure bred hybrids are hybrids that thru 1 or 2 evolutions and stick to one class. For an example: Mammolania : resilient+resilient+resilient= resilient super-hybrid
*Mixed hybrids are hybrids that combine different classes thru 1 or 2 evolutions. For example: Indoraptor : fierce+cunning+cunning= fierce-cunning super hybrid

So anyway here they all are.

12)While pure hybrids can usually keep the same resistances of there class, mixed hybrids need share both class strengths and share weaknesses.
Let’s use two examples: Monolometradon and Ardontosaurus

Monolometrodon is (fierce+cunning) but goes more into the fierce side as evidence by its kit and model. So the resistances should account for both classes.

Monolometrodon

  • 30% distraction Resistance
  • 100% Speed Resistance
  • 50% Rend resistance
  • 100% Swap Prevention Resistance
  • 100% Vulnerability Resistance

Weaknesses:

  • Stun
  • D.o.T
  • Distraction
  • Crit reduction
  • Dodge

Ardontosaurus is a (Resilient+ Fierce) but goes more into the resilient side of the family evident from the animation and kit. So resistances should reflect this.

Ardontosaurus:

  • 50% Crit resistance
  • 50% Speed decrease
  • 50% stun resistance
  • 100% vulnerability resistance
  • 100% Taunt resistance
  • 50% swap-prevention resistance

weaknesses:

  • Stun
  • D.o.T
  • Distraction
  • Crit reduction
  • Swap prevention

This way the combination new abilities and stats always have counter measures that keep the creature in check. (Looking at you maxima, tryko, and tenato).

13)Now lets move on to a group you probably are asking what happened to… the jacks (aka: jack of all trades dinos) well actually thanks to ludia reworking a lot of the hybrids most jacks have now fallen in either the pure of mixed hybrids even into their super-hybrids stage. Well, except for three; they would be Tenatorex, Spinoconstrictor, and Monolorhino. Now to be completely honest…idk what to do with these three, you cant really deny them have all three family attributes since each has class component.

Spinoconstrictor: Resillient+Cunning+Fierce

Monolorhino: Fierce+cunning+Resilient

Tenatorex: Fierce+Cunning+Resilient

Now i have two possible solutions to make sure they just can’t counter everything:
One instead of gaining another class it instead all combine into nullification abilities that cleanse, this makes sense as each moves has some sort of nullifying aspect (resilient- remove dodge and speed increase, fierce- remove shields, and cunning- remove attack buffs) and the cleansing cause again each has a form of cleansing a negative effect ( Resilient- distraction, Cunning- DoT, and Fierce- vulnerability). I know what you must be thinking, wElL thylo the sounds familiar and to that once again I say…
image

Tip the scales: skoolosaurus unique move basically does the same thing but it has two flaws.

  1. It’s a priority passive move; meaning yes it won’t cleanse positive effect the your opponent put on you that turn. (Basically the same problem with prowl and sidestep but worse,

  2. It does 0 damage. Now again a lot of priority moves do this like instant invincibility, instant distraction, prowl, sidestep, and evasive; yet unlike those other moves it gives nothing in return in terms of damage reduction or negation. Mean you do nothing, for basically nothing in return.

So what I’m proposing is the same thing but a actual damaging version ( impact, rampage, devastation). Now its now before you say well that sound broken i have thought over this and it wont be; for one it Can NEVER BE A STRIKE since that most broken thing ever, two it will have along cooldown in accordance with nullifying and cleansing moves. Plus for now this i exclusive to these three cause they have all three classes in their make up.

Also the second solution is your guys: what do you think should be done about the jacks.

                   So ya in summary: #14
Summary
  • A new era: 2.0 basics and explaintion of the class and categorization systems —-> see paragraphs 1-4

  • What ludia did wrong: Ludia messed up big time by not checking over things, testing, not sticking to there won rules, and overall for some reason not using common sense —-> see paragraphs 5-7

  • Due to this some families break the class system, and some hybrids were not well balanced to fit in with the new class system. —-> see paragraph 6

  • Due to ludia being ludia as always they added another multi-effect strike like Cautious strike, clearly they didn’t learn the communities hatred towards these type of moves, and once again leading to an entire class of dinos being destroyed but this on move. Although this time the area of effect and availability of the new move-[ resilient ]- is far worse than in the past —-> see paragraph 8

  • This has also lead to some groups of dinosaurs like the hadrosaurs to become mostly unusable in PvP with there only being either to good in raids, undermining 2 years worth of hunting, leveling, spending, and collecting; a proposed way is for drastic changes to a creatures kit for raid is made it be only active in raids.—-> see paragraph 7

  • Families: some creatures were left with families and not have really that specific roles and or unique gameplay styles; proposed solutions are shown in the power point slides above —-> see paragraph 10

  • The new era and hybrids: explains how the class system and resistances work based on each classes strengths and weaknesses —-> see paragraphs 11-13

So quick poll(s)

What do you think of the ideas show in the article/thread/idk?

  • I agree
  • I agree with most of it
  • I agree with some of it
  • Neutral
  • I disagree with some of it
  • I disagree with most of it
  • I disagree
  • NO…MY OP CREATURE!
  • We got to have…money

0 voters

Anyways leave you thoughts below, this took a while to do so it was exhausting anyway thxs for reading or just skimming through, take life easy, don’t stress even if the whole world and this game are going down the crapper. Otter out :otter:.

23 Likes

Thank you for taking the time to write this article, it was a very entertaining read! The graphs are really cool to visualise everything as well. Only question I have is why fierce creatures only get 3 resistances when cunning or resilient get 4.

4 Likes

Each goes into what counters each.

As cunning have low health and high speed, stuff meant to counter high/tanky creatures (DoT & Rend), and since almost none can pierce armor nor shields distraction should really be an option. Yet slow, precise, and vulnerability should totally shut them down

Personally, I feel like the fierce class should be buffed because just by looking at the graphs, they have disproportionately many weakness, considerably more than resilient or cunning

2 Likes

Not really most here got got buffs like speed increases, new moves, and kits. Plus the charts are mostly to explore base or non-hybrid attributes and weakness of each class.

If anything, fierce creatures should gain resistance to stuns because many resilient creatures (ceratopsians, hadrosaurs) rely on stuns. Of course not all of them, but some

3 Likes

For example want a chomper to not be easily stopped by distraction then mix it with a cunning creature, you gain an edge on other fierce and cunning creatures.

You want a chomper that more resistant to stuns and can shield mix that with a resilient creature.

1 Like

No stuns i feel like should be good against cunning and fierce as it helps stop them form just cycling thru attacks and gives them some hope of doing some damage, like imagine you fighting something like tenato with a rinex and you’re unable to gain back speed control thanks to it being immune to stuns… oh wait

Plus stun is basically dead and most stuns only happen on turn two so most chompers will do way more damage or even kill them before they get a chance to stun.

2 Likes

Very good article. Ludia really needs to see the work you’ve but into this.

(you forgot about Mortem Rex btw)

2 Likes

Crap…oh well it’s like 12:00 am I woke up at 7:00 the semester starts tomorrow; I’ll fix it eventually

3 Likes

Nice article! I was thinking of throwing together something like this myself, so I’m glad you did, and much better than I would have. You just have to be careful when you design creatures formulaically. Yes it does make a lot more sense how they turn out and avoids outliers breaking the game, but it also can lead to some redundancies of you’re not careful. I think Ludia did a lot of this in 2.0 (like giving resilient attacks to every resilient creature they could think of, or giving fierce attacks to dinos that are already immune to vulnerability so they could have just had defense shattering instead), and well… you know how that turned out. But with proper testing and balancing, not a bad system for doing things.

2 Likes

Heres my take on this situation. Ludia has consistently put out metas where we are almost balanced if they would just address X and X. Sometimes theres more then two x… usually atleast two. Thats simply to consistent for their to be a lack of testing issue. And its to consistent for Ludia not to realize their are issues.

And its not a “changes take time” because some creatures can be left alone even when clearly over performing for months… meanwhile smilonemy was op for like a week before Ludia jumped in with a hotfix.

Its by design… its no coincidence that these dinos are eventually turned to junk either. Of course by the time these changes are implementing most are so sick of seeing them in the arena when Ludia announces the nerfs their thanked.

This cycle keeps repeating itself and until Ludia decides that want a truly balanced game… this one isnt gonna be one.

3 Likes

Personally I liked OPs ideas less for balance and more for having the game follow a consistent internal logic. I know I just stated that I want a balanced game in my last response, and speaking as a player thats true. But even with this kind of system, there could be standouts and weaker creatures, creating that kind of perfect imbalance that Ludia seems to go for. I’ve just felt like every time they make a significant update, they always forget to pick up some of the pieces. Like would you believe that Monolometerodon is the ONLY creature with nullifying strike left in the entire game (and that’s not even it’s only basic attack). Hopefully a system like this would at least get every creature on the same page again, which is how a true 2.0 update should have been.

Oof yes like fierce and resilient we’re just tough to make special. Since they all slow and chomp I wanted see if each could have there own special things.

For example the three hardest were the dimetrodons, sauropods and stegosaurus

Dimetrodons were always basically just worse rexs but with full immunity …and that’s gone so got to thing of something else so I went back and made the cri impacters

Sauropods are basically diet brachis so again just need something to make them stand out, so I went for constant decel and shield advantage (but it doesn’t pierce armor)

The stegos were just diet diet sauropods, and so i decide we’ll if like more than half have counters why not make them the counter attackers of resilient creatures

While it’s hard make them each have a role can be done

1 Like

Yeah not following Logic is another thing their great for really. So many examples… like the original monomimus nerf which was do to the scarcity of components only for them do introduce proceratho who used even less scarce components and they left them that way for months… or getting rid of that attempt on tenotorex for the match making imbalances… while their feeding everyone sino dna at every opportunity… just before they dropped boosts 1.0

I dont think i ever read a single patch notes where I havent said out loud what sense does that make.

2 Likes

Eh at least the mods see it…I hope

1 Like

I think maybe common through legendary should follow something like this, but uniques should start to step out of these roles…so they can be uniques. I think the uniques though should still be balanced against each other…with weaknesses to account for their strengths in a similar fashion, but it should be to a lesser degree. Basically rock, paper, scissors until you hit uniques, then its more like kinda-rock, kinda-paper, kinda-scissors and it takes a bit more strategy to play. But all of them should still have weaknesses, just less weaknesses or perhaps less effective weaknesses.

You have to know that Refresh sucks. Tryo sucks. It’s not powerful. At all.

3 Likes

And how are Spyx, Erlidom, Grylenken or Indo G2 cunning-fierce? They seem to be pure cunning

2 Likes