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Cunning Creatures - we need to discuss them

Let’s talk about this. Feel free to let me know if I made any mistakes.

So what’s going on with cunning creatures?
Most of them are really, really bad in the current meta, that’s what.

What should cunning creatures beat and be beaten by?
According to the cycle, cunning creatures are good against fierce but lose against resilient.

We have a problem with cunning creatures.
To quote Ludia themselves,

So what’s going wrong?
Well, part of the problem is indeed resilient, and the fact that so many dinos have the abilities. But there’s a lot more than just resilient that’s causing cunning creatures to suffer, especially since, at the least, they’re supposed to lose to resilient anyway.

First off, let’s have a look at creatures determined by the amount in the game:

  • 64 cunning. Of those, 4 are also resilient, and 13 are also fierce. 47 pure cunning.
  • 75 fierce. Of those, 17 are also resilient, and 13 are also cunning. 45 pure fierce.
  • 101 resilient. Of those, 17 are also fierce, and 4 are also cunning. 80 pure resilient.

There are far, far too many resilient dinos in the game for starters. Much more variety! Now let’s look at fierce - more than we have cunning, but look at that “pure” symbol - the least amount in the game! These are the dinos that cunning creatures should beat, but there aren’t many to actually beat.

Now a closer look at those “pure” fierce dinos -
About 6 are immune or have partial immunity to distraction.
Around 15 can cleanse distraction in some way.

In terms of pure fierce legendaries and uniques, there are a total of 3 fierce dinos that cannot cleanse distraction (Thor, Allosino and Spinotah). All others have a cleansing move or are immune to it in some way.

To put it simply, for the end game, there are too many resilient creatures in the game and too many fierce creatures with cleansing moves.

As for evasive - it’s a 50% chance on most dinos, and that alone is enough to make it suffer. There’s no “50% chance this shield will work” or “50% chance this will pierce armour” moves, so it’s hard to really work out what to do with this. That said, with the sheer number of resilient dinos, evasive cannot be relied on like it used to be.

What could be the solution?
Well, feel free to post your ideas, maybe Ludia will take note.

We absolutely need more fierce creatures that are suitable for end game.

We have superiority strike and resilient moves for resilient dinos. Why not have a similar move for the fierce ones? Something that specifically allows them to cleanse speed decreases, so they can’t be slowed by the creatures they’re meant to beat, but also can’t worm their way out of distraction to beat (or at least land a very hefty hit on) a cunning critter. A few fierce creatures having a full cleansing strike here and there is fine, but if the answer to making a fierce creature “strong” is to give it a cleansing move? Go back to the drawing board, we already have enough of those.

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I do agree with your analysis, but to me at least, cunnings already seem better after the Maxima and Tryko nerfs. You may still be right, but I want to see how the meta shakes out.

I also agree thay fierce need something to help them against resilient, but I’m not sure that cleansing deceleration is the right way to go. Many fierce creatures are already immune to deceleration (barys, long legged crocs, dimetrodon-like), and those that arent (namely chompers) probably shouldn’t be. We don’t want nitro Thors and T Rex running around that can’t be slowed. That said, it would be nice if stuff like cleansing shattering strike and Acros group cleansing strike specifically cleansed deceleration. But yeah, they could definitely use something. And we absolutely need more fierce that are end-game viable.

It might be becoming hard for Ludia to design new unique fierce creatures. They only have a few distinct abilities: shield break, DOT, and ferocity, and there’s only so far you can go with that. Hence only a small number of pure fierce. I would like to see them make more fierce focusing on rend, there’s a lot of potential there. If they made more cunnings resist rend, that could help them a lot (kind of like how they resist DoT).

3 Likes

Ok. So the new Acro, though it was removed, maybe they could create it to have:
Moves:
PFS
Group Ferocious Impact
Defense Shattering Rampage
Rending Counter Attack

It’s hybrid could be with Allosino, maybe Allosinocanthus?
Moves:
PFS
Decel Cleansing Impact
Fierce Rampage
Instant Charge
Minor Rending Counter Attack

Stats:
3900 Health
1300 Attack
110 Speed
10% Armor
20% Critical Chance
With Decel Cleansing Impact it would have a 2 turn cooldown

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I’m not sure about that hybrid, it just looks like better Thor to me. One with higher HP and speed, armor, the ability to boost it’s attack, the ability to cleanse deceleration (now everyone would pour their speed boosts into this), the ability to use a rampage, and a rending counter attack. That’s a LOT.

Should Thor get a buff? Probably. Should we have more endgame level fierce? Of course. But this might be a tad over the top :sweat_smile:

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Fix it. Now has less health and attack, buff the armor helps and it can buff itself

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That’s definitely better, but might still be a tad on the strong side. I’ll have to see what others think.

It would do around 4000 damage with a boosted rampage, but it can’t cleanse anything but Decel, and it can do 2600 without a boost. This allows cunning to distract it well, while murdering tanks. Maybe 3900 Health would be good?

I think the main thing for me is the damage and deceleration cleansing together. Any time you have a chomper like T Rex or Thor, the HP and attack are both quite high, so their only low stat is speed. Thus, all people have to do to make it strong is use speed boosts, and can afford to apply a higher percentage of their possible boosts towards their speed, reaching ridiculous levels. I usually say that they should balance with the base game in mind and not boosts, but when we know this happens, we don’t want this thing to be able to cleanse deceleration.

2 Likes

True, but it would likely be a one time cleanse, as it has a 2 turn cooldown, and with many speedsters they are much faster. I think if it had 3900, it would be good. I could change it from Decel cleansing to something else, maybe Group Ferocious Impact, so that it could buff more, but with 3900 hp and no distraction cleanse, would be at the mercy of speedsters that can remove the buff or distract it over and over.

Thats true, it might work out with that cooldown. And I might change the counter to a minor rending counter. The thing is, it’s base speed is pretty low, so it wouldn’t outspeed many tanks even if it did cleanse without using speed boosts. So the move is somehow simultaneously too strong and useless at the same time :joy:

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Do decel cleansing impact with a 2 turn cooldown, and make its health 3900? I changed it’s speed to 110 so that it can out speed most tanks, but it would take a while for it to be as fast or fast than most speedsters

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That sounds better to me

The thing with 3900 is that with that health it’s starting to get into cunning territory with that health, so maybe 4200 Health would be fine?

when a chomper can cleanse its main weakness, it is on the verge of breaking itself. Looking at tenonto, tryko, mortem and allo g2.

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That what I tried to create. An endgame viable chomper that is very weak to cunning

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What if you lowered the base attack more, and gave it rending takedown instead of fierce rampage, and also removed the rending counter? Then it could still tear a huge chunk out of resilients, but wouldn’t really touch cunnings. The Ferocity also somewhat negates distraction.

Which is why the Tryko nerf was in the wrong direction, but I digress…

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So remove the counter attack, change it to have 4200 health, maybe 1150 attack, and rending takedown. I see the others, but I kinda like that it has a normal rampage

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The thing is a normal rampage has the power to break through cunnings, since they have such low health. Rending always does a fixed percentage, and this percentage can also be lowered with distraction. It could never kill a cunning using rend alone, but it could using a rampage.

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Ok. Plus with some tanks at 8k health, it would be better. Plus a unique that has rending takedown. Should I just make a forum page instead?

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