Cunnings shouldn't beat dodge!

It does though, it deals 1x. Plus it speeds up your entire team, not just you, and by 50% instead of 30%. And it’s priority. So maybe a rampage with 30% would be balanced?

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No, I just don’t want to pointlessly hamstring dinos in the name of consistency.

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Internal Face Palm I meant it doesnt do times 2 damage. Sometimes I say random things

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I mean, its not pointless. Making the class structure more balanced and giving the dinos more interesting options instead? And I wouldn’t say it’s hamstringing either. They would all end up stronger after these changes.

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Thats what I was going to say :joy:
Being able to speed up while doing two times damage is better than going through dodge. Which it’s not supposed to because balance

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Okay, this is probably a conversation for another thread, but if we are going to be fair by this nature, Fierce creatures should be either immune to deceleration (maybe that’s a little much for some) or at least start off with a higher base speed stat. There’s no reason most chompers should be slower than sauropods.

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I’ll agree that most fierce should outspeed resilients. But deceleration immunity shouldn’t be given out lightly. Many fierce already are, but chompers have so much health and attack already, they make easy targets for speed boosts. Deceleration is one of the only ways to counter a nitro chomper. Most chompers have enough HP to make up for their low speed. But Barys, Spinos, Pterosaurs, Tall crocs, etc. can all benefit from it (and many already have it).

Stats can be associated with a class, but they don’t define it. That limits design possibilities. If that were true, a high HP low speed cunning like Eremotherium wouldn’t be possible. I think moves are much more defining, because they determine what a creature has the ability to do. I understand that some fierce being affected by a resilient move seems weird, but it doesn’t counter them, whereas definite attacks on fierce directly counter dodge. Chompers are designed to work at a speed disadvantage, so it doesn’t really affect them most of the time. And as of now, most are slower than resilients to begin with.

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The class structure is inherently anti-diversity. This only compounds it. Besides, almost all of these are nerfs.

How are they nerfs? They lose precise, but retain distraction, and gain either speedup or evasion. Seems like a buff to me. And a buff to dodge overall.

The class structure is inherently limiting, but it doesn’t help that ludia hasn’t explored most of the classes fully based on what they designed. I mean, the only cunning speedup moves are minimal speedup strike and sidestep.

Precise and dodge removal would still be incredibly common, just not on these cunnings. But cunning resilient hybrids would still have these moves. In fact, pretty much any moveset is possible using class hybrids and wild cards, so the design space isn’t really limited in that way, only by which stat/ability combinations are balanced. It’ll probably only get more diverse as they add more creatures that fill the gaps in the class system, like adding several new cunning-resilients in 2.2. Some anti-dodge cunnings (or at least partial cunnings) would still exist, but you just wouldn’t be able to bring out a basic pure cunning like smilodon to take out other dodgers. Have we all forgotten why the dodge meta was as bad as it was?

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It was supposed to be high HP, but for whatever reason they gave it a counter-attack and lowered its HP. Either way, it’s role as a really slow Cunning creature is quite creative.

And Camouflage and Cautious Strike, but apart from Camouflage they all buff speed by only 10%. Minimal Speedup Strike is minimal for a reason, they really need to give creatures the other variants already.

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If Nemys doesn’t beat Indos anymore it becomes even weaker…

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If you read the post (which I know is long), you’ll see that I actually let Nemys keep Precise pounce. It’s partially resilient, so it works out.

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Apologies missed that bit

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No worries! I totally understand how you could miss a single line in that mountain of text. I’m sorry about that. I know my posts are all too long, I just have a lot to say :sweat_smile:

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If i’m not wrong stegoceratops usted to have a diferent speed up move of 75%

Yeah, it had something like that, it was called Velocity Strike if I’m not mistaken

cats should keep their presice pounces
raptors take high pounce
erlikos get accelerating rampage

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Group Acceleration: ahem

I said we need more. I didn’t say we don’t have any.

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oh
ok i can fix that

Velocity Charge

Priority. Delay: 1. Cooldown: 2.

Target: All Opponents. 75% chance to Stun for 1 turns. Attack 0.5X.

Target: Team. Increase speed by 50% for 2 turns.

DInosaurs that might get this move:
ingame:
Cunning + other: Smiloceph and smilonemys
Resil: Ceramagnus
Tuoramoloch

not in-game: Pachyceph-theriz hybrid

minor/major/regular Accelerating Strike/Impact/Rampage
Self: speed up 25/34/50%
All opponents: Attack 1/1.5/2 x