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Deceleration Moves & the Resilient Meta

Everyone here knows about meta changes: Raptor Meta, Swapper Meta, Immunity Meta, etc. Now we are going through the Resilient Meta. With the introduction of Cunning, Fierce, and Resilient moves, one class has easily rose to become the most suppressive, and we all know what it is.

Some folks want them to go away, but others just think that it would be better if these moves were nerfed or morphed to play different roles.

And I agree. So! I’ve thought about the different moves that count as Resilient. Namely, the Deceleration Moves. I’ve thought about how each kind of move could do a slightly different role.

Note: This will not cover moves blended with Shields, speed increases, or any other effect. These moves aren’t said to be the problem, so I won’t talk about these. Until these become problems of course (which I highly doubt).

Deceleration ({Group} Decelerating Strike/Impact/Rampage, etc): Keep as is. All these do is slow the enemy, which everyone is fine with.

Superior (Group Superiority, Superiority Strike, Superiority Rampage, etc): Slow enemy, cleanse Distraction, and specialize in Precision. NOT removing Cloak/Evasion, but simply bypassing it. Those moves that induce Vulnerability are far and few in-between, and should be left alone.

Resilient (Resilient Strike/Impact/Rampage, etc): Slow enemy, cleanse Distraction, and specialize in removing speed increase. Does NOT remove Cloak/Evasion.

With this breakdown, every move is different from each other while maintaining its Resilient class. This will make Resilient creatures different from one another, making a variety while also keeping everything balanced.

What do you think? Would this subclass system make the Class system as a whole healthy? Should something else be done to this classes’ moves?

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Hmm I don’t think the main resilient move shudnt be able to handle cloaks. I would prefer at least precise and speed increase removal for the main strike of the class otherwise cunnings would be a bit too good against resilient in some/most situations

I like this, personally. I think that if cunning dinos could get at least two-three moves in against their resilient opponents before they’re KO’d (which is rare currently, since it’s typically “cunning attack, resilient slowing attack, resilient second attack, cunning has fainted”), they’d be a lot more viable.

You could probably just make these all the same moves as the main resilient attacks (since not removing cloak and evasion leaves resilient moves with one less effect than the other moves, even if it doesn’t feel like it). So it would be decel + cleanse distraction + remove speed increase + bypass dodge/cloak. You would basically scrap all the Superiority Moves (besides Superior Vulnerability) and give them the corresponding “new” resilient attacks instead. You can even use the Superiority icons for the “new” resilient attacks, since they wouldn’t remove dodge anymore. I would totally get behind that though.

Resilients should be able to remove dodge though so as to still be the best dodge counters, just not as commonly. Maybe they can add a new ability that does that (like bringing back thagomizers)… They can even use the current resilient icons, since they would now be unused.

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They just need to fully split Cloak into dodge + attack boost. It can keep the same name, just change how the effect works. Then resilients can remove the dodge, but not the attack boost. Cunnings could then remove the attack boost, but not the dodge.

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I think giving the Resilient Suite Vulnerability instead of Deceleration and then collectively nerfing Resilients’ attack stats would be better than now. Again though, attack stats would need to be nerfed a hefty amount, mostly for pure resilients with the attack itself.

Partially because Deceleration is a very strong effect and shouldn’t be thrown around so haphazardly. Also because it makes the Superiority Suite less redundant than it is currently.

What if Superior moves erased Evasion while Resilient erased Cloaking? Or would that make Resilient moves to OP?

Deceleration is definitely very strong, but I think the attack stat nerfs would be all they needed, and they wouldn’t need to be universal. The lower attack resilients are already pretty balanced, and its just a few that do too much damage through their decel.

They do need to reduce redundancy with superiority moves, but they could just combine them and then remove superiority moves entirely to do this.

That’s fair. Lower attack Resils like Stegodeus are balanced, like you said.

Then there’s doofs like Whino which has 1500 attack for literally no reason. If even freaking Mhino has 1250, there is no reason that Whino should have 1500.

Same goes for Diplodocus. No rational reason.

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The problem with Resilients (and specifically Resilient moves, but also Superiority and Sup. Vuln moves to a lesser degree) is that they utterly and totally shut down every advantage given to the Cunning class. IMO it should work as such:

  • All speed decrease move families (Decelerating, Superiority, Resilient, Sup. Vuln) reduce speed by 25%, not 50%, except where noted
  • Decelerating moves reduce speed by 50% for 2 turns and remove speed increase
  • Superiority moves cleanse distraction and ignore cloak/dodge and apply a single turn of speed decrease, but do not remove speed increase or nullify cloak/dodge
  • Resilient moves nullify cloak/dodge and ignore distraction and apply a single turn of speed decrease, but do not remove speed increase or cleanse distraction
  • Superior Vulnerability moves ignore distraction & cloak/dodge, apply a single turn of speed decrease, and apply Vulnerability, but do not cleanse distraction or nullify cloak/dodge or speed increase

Why these changes?

  • 25% speed decrease means creatures with speed-up or speed decrease resistance are less vulnerable to speed decrease–Spyx and Erlidom are great examples. It also slightly devalues speed decrease immunity without making it pointless.
  • Better stratifies the strengths/weaknesses of resilient-class moves, meaning Resilients can be designed to struggle with specific elements of the cunning class, giving cunnings a slightly better chance to fight back. Decelerating claps speed control but struggles against damage reduction; Superiority & Resilient aren’t quite as strong with speed control & excel against one type of damage reduction but are mediocre against others; and Sup. Vuln is something of a jack-of-trades, offering mediocre responses to all aspects of the Cunning class but not exceling at any one aspect (Vulnerability makes it slightly better in general than either Superiority or Resilient if you don’t know what your opponent is going to sling at you, but a properly matched Superiority or Resilient move outclasses Sup. Vuln)
  • Aforementioned strengths/weaknesses allow Ludia to attenuate Resilients & how they deal with Cunnings. Stegosaurs, for example, could specialize in Decelerating, able to keep a turn advantage on their opponents but poorly equipped to deal with damage reduction, while Ankylosaurs could beef through dodges & cloaks but not dominate distraction-focused Cunnings quite as readily.

I do think your system would be an improvement as well, though my one concern is that both Resilient, Superiority, and Sup. Vuln cleanse distraction. It kind of devalues distraction compared to dodge, which is relatively less common than distraction, which is present on essentially every Cunning & upon which every Cunning relies. IMO there should be a distinction between Resilients who excel against Distraction (probably those with otherwise basic kits), and those who excel against dodge/cloak (probably those who have more-diverse kits, such as MLania)

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This doesn’t really do anything most of the time. Not everything has a speed increasing move, but it does help in those cases I guess. Most cunnings will still be slower than most other dinos after 25% deceleration. They need to get up to 135 speed just to outspeed Apatosaurus. Might as well be 50%. It would be better to anticipate resilients always gaining a speed advantage, and balancing their stats around that.

What do you mean by “ignore distraction”? How do you ignore the effects of distraction without cleansing it? This also means that resilient moves apply fewer effects than other class moves, even if they have strong effects.

Again, what do you mean by “ignore distraction”?

I’ve said it before, but I’d rather just combine Superiority and resilient moves than deal with trying to differentiate them.

This is intentional. Distraction like you said is far more common than dodge, so therefore it’s counters should also be more common. The commoness of the countering abilities should reflect how common the ability they counter is. It’s much worse if they had every resilient countering dodge even though most cunnings can’t use it, which is basically what we have now.

Absolutely. Since distraction is more common than dodge, I would have most resilient moves cleanse distraction and slow, acting as distraction counters, but only have it bypass dodge. Then you could create a new class of resilient moves (like “thagomizers”) that slow and remove dodge, but don’t cleanse distraction, acting as more dedicated anti-dodge moves. These could even be given to some of the higher-attack resilients (like Rhinos or Tryko) instead of their resilient moves so that they could be affected by distraction.

Basically, I would replace all of the current resilient and superiority moves (except superior vulnerability) with the corresponding versions of these moves (i.e. Superiority moves are no longer a thing). This means dodge remains active against some resilients stronger moves (like Group Decelerating Rampage).

Then so that some resilients can still remove dodge, some would be given these new moves, and a niche as more anti-dodgers.

Stegosaurs could replace their group decelerating attacks (potentially with a group version of these moves), and high-damage resilients like the Rhino Family, Trykosaurus, etc. could replace their resilient attacks so they can’t cleanse distraction on their stronger moves (e.g. Mammotherium would have PFS, the new Raking Decelerating Impact, Dig In Taunt, and Taunting Bellow). Note that Stegosaurs would keep their resilient strikes, so they would retain an anti-distraction option at the cost of overall damage.

It’s not meant to make every single Cunning able to stay faster after a hit from a decel. It’s meant to even the playing field some. As I said, it makes a difference for something like Spyx or Erlidom. It’s also relevant in boosted, where Cunnings can push 150+ Speed while Resilients often stay near base speed. Cunnings should still generally lose to Resilients, but there should be options within the Cunning class who are more capable against Resilients and don’t get insta-clapped as most Cunnings do.

It ignores distraction… as in, distraction doesn’t apply to that move, but isn’t cleansed so that any multi-turn distractions remain in effect. For example, Utarinex vs Gemini (assuming Gemini keeps Resilient). Utarinex uses Distracting Impact, Gemini uses Resilient. In this case, Resilient deals full damage as normal. On T2, Gemini uses DSA, but because the Distraction was ignored and not cleansed on the previous turn, DSA only deals 75% of its normal damage.

Also, I don’t see “number of effects” as really justifying anything. If an effect is extremely powerful… then yes, a class move with that effect should have fewer total effects than other class moves! Deceleration is really strong. It’s so strong that it’s helped Resilients not only outclass Cunnings but also Fierce. Rather than thinking about moves in terms of “X number of effects,” it’s better to think about them in terms of total power of the effects… and Resilient moves, even with the nerfed version I proposed, pack a huge punch.

I disagree. I don’t see any merit to simplifying balancing options, particularly when it’s dealing with restructuring how one class interacts with another.

Correct, but also kind of missing the point. You’ll notice every single reworked move except Decelerating can deal with both Distraction & Dodge/Cloak? It’s not like I’m removing the ability to handle these moves. But in any case, Distraction isn’t like Vulnerability or Bleed. Yes, some Fierce use Bleed and some Resilients use Vulnerability, but neither are dependent on it. Cunnings are heavily dependent on Distraction–I’m struggling to find any even-kinda relevant Cunnings that don’t have it & rely upon it as a central part of their kit. Erlidominus is probably the closest.

In fact, every Resilient countering Dodge/Cloak would actually be far better than Distraction, because it brings Resilient more in line with how other class moves work–they remove a secondary feature of the countered class (Vulnerability, DoT, and Dodge/Cloak), nullify a buff from the countered class (Shields, Damage Increase/Crit Increase, Speed Increase), and apply a class-relevant debuff to the target (Bypass Armor, Reduce Damage/Crit Chance, Speed Decrease). Because fewer Cunnings depend on Dodge/Cloak, making that the central focus of Resilient-class moves would be far more in line and far more balanced than making Distraction the central focus.

As a side note, since I have a feeling it might come up, you might take issue with Cunning class moves nullifying two effects & applying two debuffs… this kind of circles back to what I was saying about move power rather than number of effects. Critical increase isn’t a wildly common effect in Arena, and removing Crit chance isn’t that insanely impactful on most matchups. Overall, nullifying & reducing Crit Chance is very low impact, and honestly? If it disappeared, it probably wouldn’t affect the Cunning class much, if at all.

Also… you might take issue with how I described the Fierce class moves, but I think that would largely be a semantic issue. Shattering shields is essentially the same as nullifying shields, just with flavor text–it would be like if Cunning moves “mended DoT.” Same mechanic, different flavor. Likewise, bypassing Armor is essentially a debuff–it’s functionally equivalent to a debuff that would say “reduce Armor to 0% for 1 turn, 1 attack.” Bypass simply implies the attack/turn duration–it’s not entirely dissimilar to “Ignore Distraction” in that regard.

This is essentially what I suggested… the only difference is that the anti-Cloak/Dodge abilities “bypass” or “ignore” Distraction, which per your commentary on Distraction is appropriate given how common that is.

Ok, I guess I could see that. I like it more the more I think about it.

There just isn’t anything like this in the game with any other debuff. When a dino is affected by a debuff (cleansable negative effect), their debuffed state affects all their moves with no exceptions, unless they can cleanse the debuff. There are far more examples of single-turn distraction than multi-turn, so it would basically just be a cleanse most of the time. I don’t think it’s worth inventing an entirely new mechanic just for this kind of situation. If you want a move to be worse against distraction, then just don’t have it cleanse distraction. Cunnings could use that advantage, right?

It’s just about achieving parity between the classes. I agree that in most cases it shouldn’t matter. But even in Gamepresses own article about resilient moves, which I mostly disagreed with, they made this same point about keeping the number of effects the same, and I think that point at least is worth looking into.

Then make more fierce immune to decel :man_shrugging:

The way I see it, the game is complicated enough. If two moves essentially do the same thing, I would rather just combine them. Makes things less complicated for everyone. Sometimes making things simpler makes them easier to balance.

This is just completely backwards to me. Look what resilient attacks have done for the viability of dodge in the current meta. Yes your idea would make distraction a bit better, but at the cost of making dodge basically useless. I guess I’ll kinda contradict myself here, but this is one case where creating parity with the other classes probably isn’t for the best. For consistency, instead of “remove”, I will use “cleanse” to describe removing negative effects from oneself, and “nullify” as removing positive effects from the opponent. Yes the other class moves cleanse less common debuffs, but just look at how well bleeders and vulnerability users are doing right now. Maybe that’s something to think an for another discussion. Each class is a bit different, so the moves put their strengths in different aspects (which you can kind of see through your use of the term “removing”, where the strong effects being countered are sometimes buffs but sometimes debuffs). For example, the cleansing part of fierce moves only deals with an uncommon debuff, but they nullify and bypass the common resilient traits/buffs of shields and armor. Cunnings neither cleanse nor nullify a particularly common effect (although fierce don’t really use buffs or debuffs that commonly to begin with), so maybe that’s part of the problem? But for now, I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.

This is why in my reworked moves, while resilient attacks can deal with distraction and kinda deal with dodge, the Raking Decelerating attacks cannot deal with distraction at all (but can deal with dodge better). For dinos with only these moves, distraction will become much more effective. That actually lines up with the core of what you’re saying, that not every resilient should be able to shut down both distraction and dodge, which I agree with. The main differences are that I didn’t have to invent an entire new game mechanic to get them to work (I just have distraction apply as normal, forcing you to use different options in those situations), and I made it so that the more common resilient countering effect would match the more common cunning effect.

I kind of see nullify attack buffs and nullify crit buffs as a same effect, but you’re right that if you separate them cunnings have 5 effects instead of 4, though this clearly isn’t creating an issue.

I actually entirely agree with these descriptions. That’s part of why simplifying the game is good - once you move past the flavor text, things become much more clear.

The thing is that “ignore distraction” IS different, or at least a novel concept. Debuffs change the state of your dino for all moves unless cleansed, but they always apply up until said cleanse. Imagine an effect that was “ignore deceleration”. How would that work? You would basically be at a speed disadvantage, then suddenly attack first anyway because you chose a particular move, skipping the part where you would had to have waited to cleanse the decel after your opponent attacked. And then you suddenly go back to being slower again (if still slowed)? It just doesn’t really fit into the games mechanics. I see what you’re getting at, but the idea of ignoring debuffs couldn’t be applied universally (not that it needs to, I guess), so I would prefer a simpler solution.

This may become situationally annoying as there are more dinos with resilient and less dinos with cloak compared to less with SS and more with dodges

These new moves do seem more balanced between removing and preserving speed increases and dodges/cloak, i like it

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