Ludia Forums

Deliberate prowl not dodging due to turn timers

The dodge on deliberate prowl does not even lasting a single turn if you attack second and then first.
E.G smilonemys uses Deliberate prowl, grypo uses heal. Heal goes first then prowl.
Next turn Nemys uses pounce and Grypo uses strike.
As soon an Nemys makes an attack his turn of dodge is over, and both of grypos moves hit him. This is not a rare occurance, what if your dino was slowed so you use prowl to cleanse, it means the move doesn’t have a dodge because you’re faster next turn. This move is pretty terrible the way it currently works. It would honestly be better if it dodged 1 attack lasting 2 turns.

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Umm what? You’re basically saying it’s not lasting a turn if you use up your turn. I see nothing wrong here. So this is basically a buff DP thread then? Because it looks more like you’re talking about a bug or something.

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If a move says it dodges two attacks and then it dodges zero it’s a problem. if they expected it to just last the current turn they wouldn’t have made two versions of the move. This move is INTENDED to go second, but then if you go first the next turn you lose half of the moves benefits. It’s clearly an issue with this moves mechanics and how turns are counted. It should wait until the end of the turn the opponent makes a move following this attack.

It seems to work fine to me in the situation you describe. Just unlucky that you didnt dodge which can happen.

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If you ignore the fact that it’s only supposed to last for a turn, which it does.

It’s doesn’t actually last the current turn, it lasts 1 turn, which is quite different.

Isn’t that the point? Like you said, it’s meant for situations where you go second, so if you go first don’t expect it to do as much.

I don’t see how you reached that conclusion. It counts turns the same way as every other similar ability. It delivers exactly what it promises. If you’re expecting more than that, then I suppose this is a buff thread then, like I said earlier.

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I will need to do more testing, i generally avoid that situation. In the two examples where i had it occur the visual effect of the cloak also disapeared as if the effect had ended and wasn’t trying to dodge/

If you are slowed and decide to use prowl to cleanse the slow then you’re saying it should not dodge any attacks. Please explain why you believe this to be the case?

If a move is designed to go second I believe it’s effects should occur next turn instead of this one. Which is indeed the intended effect of this move. Why then should it’s ability to dodge on the following turn be dependant on who is going first? Especially when one of the intended uses of this move is to change the order of who goes first.

In a turn each player has an opportunity to attack, so if it is ending before your opponent has made an attack it is not lasting a whole turn.

This actually seems similar to Shielding decel strike. If your opponent is faster and you use shielding decel, the following turn you are faster. If you then use precise pounce your shield is gone. If this is indeed the intention of ludia then that is fine. It just doesn’t seem right that these moves have situations where they provide no protection. Especially as it seems these moves are designed to some extent to create these situations. (E.G decel is designed to change attack order, cleanse is designed to cleanse speed decrease)

Because that is what the move is advertised as doing.

To the first question, because that’s how turns work for evasion and shields (hence why you later noticed Shielded Decel Strike acting the same, because they have the same turn duration).
As for changing the order of who goes first, that isn’t necessarily an intended use of the move, and even if it is, it does that regardless of whether you get to dodge or not. If you want it to dodge even when changing the speed order then fine, but like I’ve already said, that would be a buff request for a move that is working perfectly fine.

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So the question is if ludia intended the move to behave in this way or is it just a result of how they changed the turn mechanics. I believe it is the latter, it would just be too difficult a fix.
If mutual fury was a 1 turn effect increasing your opponents attack (which is reasonable, use it or lose it) Then people would be very angry in this situation.

Simply put the wording of the move is misleading. we have “this turn” to cover the current turn “one turn” to cover this and the next and “two turns”. They do not always work over a whole turn which is misleading. I do not believe that Ludia would intentionally choose to have effects which behave inconsistently. It is simply a mechanics problem.

The move IS advertising it will dodge, it doesn’t.
It is not a buff if the moves says it should do something. I believe it’s been nerfed by it’s mechanics. The moves are not being performing as expected.
What you don’t seem to understand here is that the current mechanics are sub par. They work reasonably well which is great, but we need these discussions in order to improve things.

Now the thread seems to have lost the topic as i try to explain to you the issues I have here.

There is no sensible way to have “lasts one turn” work as it currently does and that’s the issue. It seems to currently behave as “until your next attack” So they should reword it to say that. For one turn should be either until the end phase of the next turn or until both players have used another move (Whether that be use a move, try to swap or shake off a stun)

Same happens with cautious strike, if you’re slowed and you use it but become faster on the next turn then your next move will remove the dodge unless you use another cautious strike.

Yeah after talking in this post i’ve come to realise it will effect pretty much every move that lasts a certain number of turns. I’ve learnt something here that may come in handy in arena. I think they intentionally made mutual fury last 2 turns for the opponent due to these mechanics.
It does mean you could do some weird stuff. Take this scenario
indom1 (120 speed) VS indom2(122 speed)
-Turn 1–Indom 2 uses strike, indom 1 mutual fury
-Turn 2–indom 2 uses mutual fury indom 1 uses cloak
-Turn 3–indom 2 uses rampage, indom 1 does rampage
Indom 2 has double his attack, but if indom 1 had instead used mutual fury instead of cloak the turn before and attacked indom 1 on round 3 indom 1 would have the same attack regardless. He would still only have his attack boosted 2 times instead of 3.

Another interesting observation is Thylacotator. His swap in ability says distract 100% for 2 attacks lasting 1 turn after swap in. If this was consistent with the rest of the “1 turn” effects, then if you swap thylo in against a higher speed dino then the opponent should stay distracted on the following turn until you have attacked. I haven’t tested this but i don’t believe it in fact does, which means there are inconsistencies in the wording vs working on the moves.
EDIT* I believe swap in distraction means “This turn” rather than “1 turn” Which with normal moves means until your next attack or the end of the following turn

Actually, using MF on turn 2 would actually eat Indom2’s turn of ferocity, since MF was its action that turn, so it’s with the +50% multiplier instead of the +100% your talking about. Regarding Indom1 and it’s cloak and MF stack staying the same, this is actually false. If Indom one were to somehow get to use MF twice in the situation described. It would have +100% since the boost it got from the other Indom would get eaten if Indom1 went second. The leaves it with a +100%, vs the plus 200% you’d get for using cloak, since cloak is a priority move and would act before MF, letting Indom1 use Indom2’s attack boost.

This is also false, since I think you’ve got turns a little confused. Turns in this game I like to define as three types, Offensive (turns where your effect hits your opponent), Defensive, (turns that counter when you use a defensive effect), and neutral (counts down at the end of the turn). Offensive and Defensive turns tick every time a creature uses a move that isn’t a swap in, on escape, or counter attack.

In the case above, Thylo is distracting an opponent. If the opponent were to attack, Thylo, it would do 0 damage. However, it’s next attack would do the full damage if it hits Thylo, since the distraction lasts for one offensive turn, or your opponents turn. The 2 turns effect is actually a developing redundancy, which is pretty common in gaming.

In your DP case, Thylo’s dodge wears off in 1 defensive turn, or when it moves again, this is why if you use DP to cleanse off Decel, the dodge will wear off.

It’s been a while tho, so you might want someone to double check this

That’s indeed very interesting. None of this seems intuitive from the wording of the moves. What you’re saying about indom wasting his increased attack if he uses mutual fury is a prime example. With superior vulnerability they are vulnerable for 1 attack lasting 2 turns, if you use a non offensive move after you use vulnerability then you can still attack on the following turn and get the increased damage. This is what leads me to believe you may be mistaken with the indom situation. I will have to do testing to confirm but you are correct then two moves would be behaving completely differently even though they have the same wording. It would be another inconsistency with the game wording that should be amended.
Yes i believe Thylos “2 attacks” is a redundancy but it should be one easily remedied to avoid confusion

Thinking of your offensive/ defensive system, if we look at cunning strike and shielding decel strike i presume one is defensive one offensive? because they both last for at least 2 hits and 1 turn. Cunning strike wont protect you from an attack on 2 separate turns but shielding decel will. which of these is which? is there a trick to work it out? Your system fits nicely here

Regardless of what you believe, this is just how the game works, and it does so consistently for all abilities. I agree that it’s not entirely intuitive, which I’ve brought up before myself, but they don’t seem to care.
The issue you’re having is that some effects just count turns differently to others, a feature which Ludia implemented in 2.0 (shields and evasion count a turn when you make your next move, while everything else counts a turn when the opponent moves). This does seem to contradict Ludia’s own definition of what turns are, but like I said, they don’t seem to be bothered.
When you know that that’s how it works there shouldn’t be any issues though, and Ludia has confirmed that it is working as intended, intuitive or not.

That’s one good way of rationalising it, although “offensive” and “defensive” might not be the best names.

As for Thylacotator, there’s probably a typo in the description if the Distraction doesn’t last when your opponent swaps in at the same time. I don’t remember if it does anymore, I think it may not, but I’m pretty sure it used to before 2.0

I should probably add that DoT also counts turns differently from the other abilities, where a turn is counted once both sides have made a move (what I call the objective turn counter). That would presumably correspond to th3bub’s “neutral” type.