Ludia Forums

Don't blame Ludia, blame the players themselves

We have been seeing topics regarding some of the most abused creatures over and over again. Thor, monolometrodon, sarcorixis, these creatures has been a headache for many mid-game players, especially those who are trying to push trophies instead of staying low. But I would like to point out in this topic how the main problem is the players, but not ludia.
All 3 creatures I’ve mentioned previously has something in common, they’re easy to create and fuse, they’re good when boosted and they’re highly used in different parts of the arena.
Now let’s first talk how ludia started the problem. Problem about all 3 of these creatures is that they’re stronger than they should be. Meaning they’re too easy to fuse for their strength level (boosted). If they weren’t created like that, this problem wont be a thing at all. But now it’s up to the player to decide what to do with it.
Since they’re easy to level, players start to level them first, most people we face has these creatures much higher level than the rest of the team. People like to focus their boosts on their stronger creatures, creating an imbalance in their team, so they invest most of their boosts on those overleveled creatures first, making the problem even worse. When players see how someone boost these creatures (take nitro thor as an example), they follow the way others boost it, they give nitro to the thor!
Many people on the forum says these creatures aren’t that good, most of the players who uses these creatures wont go any higher than library. I want to point out that, these creatures are abused in the mid game. They’re nothing special after gyrosphere, but below that arenas are full of them, mostly maxed boosted. They’re the main problem for people who are genuinely trying to push with balanced teams, which unfortunately is a minority of the player base because of players influencing each others.
When you face a problem, would you like solve it? or be part of it and make it worse?

3 Likes

I think you’re generally correct that those three are perhaps a bit stronger than they should be (maybe not Thor though). But I wouldn’t blame the players for playing the game to the best of their ability. If that means abusing a few particular dinos, so be it. But you can’t fault them for trying to do the best they can.

Besides being easy to create, these three also disproportionately benefit from boosts, but for different reasons.

Thor has great attack and hp, so it’s easy to either min/max it for damage or pour all your boosts into speed to fix one of its few weaknesses: both are good. I don’t think Thor is broken though. Cunnings like Erlikospyx can counter it no matter how boosted it is. As the only pure unique chomper, many people also choose to boost and use Thor because it’s the only dino that fills it’s roll. It’s also good in raids, so boosted raid Thors can do well on your main team. But like I said, Thor isn’t too hard to counter.

Monolometerodon unboosted has generally good stats, but nothing overwhelming. It’s hard to counter Monolometerodon though, because it isn’t really weak to any debuffs. Now this isn’t a huge problem unboosted; Monolometerodon has a harder time outspeeding and outdamaging it’s counters (but not always). But with boosts, when Monolometerodon has great stats, having no weaknesses becomes an insurmountable obstacle; it becomes needlessly different to counter, especially for a legendary as easy to make as it is. Most of Monolometerodon’s counters are already harder to make than it is, so this is just icing on the cake.

Sarcorixis has generally good stats, but what makes it too strong is it’s moves. It has an answer for everything. Resilients can’t outdamage it or slow it down. Cunnings get countered by resilient strike. As a resilient, Fierce dinos should be the best counters for Rixis, but very few actually do this well. Rixis doesn’t have distraction, but it can finish off many fierce dinos just as easily with it’s high damage output from Ferocious Impact and stalling with it’s stuns. So similarly to Monolometerodon, Rixis doesn’t really have much of a weakness, and a boosted dino without counters becomes a problem. I wouldn’t go as far as to say that it’s a wild card, it’s more like a resilient or fierce-resilient without the weaknesses of that class (namely the fierce class). Besides, no matter what you call it, other wild cards are far easier to counter than Rixis is, even ones that remain endgame viable like Thylacotator. Rixis needs a bit of a moveset overhaul (and maybe some minor nerfs to it’s attack) in order to allow it to be countered more effectively.

4 Likes

The worst sub-problem out of this whole thing is that the players choose to overlevel and overboost them, I have absolutely no judgement on a thor/mono that’s around the same level and boost as the rest of the team. It’s the fact they choose to invest way more on these particular creatures that causes their whole team to be so imbalanced, so they can sweep teams when opponent doesnt have a counter good enough at this stage

2 Likes

As for how you said thor isnt a problem, not really true. Cunnings can counter it well, yes, but cunnings arent good in general, the meta strongly unfavours cunning, it’s rare to see people with more than 2 cunning on their team, while I only have one. Thor is basically the only fierce problem in mid game, mortem is strong but not as common, also not possible to have it maxed

1 Like

I won’t deny that it’s not the most sportsmanlike strategy, but as long as it’s a possibility in the game, the fault is on the developers, not players. The developers set the rules for the game, and anything that’s possible within those rules is allowed. So if these strategies do exist, it’s not the fault of the players that abuse them, rather it’s the fault of the developers who allowed these strategies to be possible in the first place.

I’m also not sure how successful this strategy actually is in the long run. Sure it sucks when you have to fight one of these nitro-boosted dinos. But if you focus only on one dino and ignore the rest of your team, you’re probably going to lose most of the matches where you don’t draw your powerhouse. So those players are going to be losing just as many matches as they’re winning.

9 Likes

It isn’t a great meta for cunnings, that’s true, but you can still keep them on your team specially for dealing with stuff like Thor. Now personally I see tons of Thors in Aviary, but I rarely have a problem with dealing with them. I think it’s just overrepresented, since very few things can do what it can do. For your “strong resilient” slots, you can choose between Mammolania, Geminititan, Diorajasaur, Ardentismaxima, and even stuff like Testacornibus is pretty good. For a high damage dealer in the endgame, until you get your hands on a Mortem, your only options are Thor and Allosinosaurus (both are about as strong as each other in arena, but Thor is better for raids, so you’re more likely to see Thors overall). If only one dino fills a key role on your team, of course you’re going to see it a bunch, but that doesn’t make it broken by default. As long as something can be adequately countered from the moment you unlock it, I don’t think it’s overpowering, and Thor can be countered.

4 Likes

Since you said that I would like you to have a read at this post I made a few days ago that no one replied…

There’s no proof that it isn’t equal at this point. If it wasn’t an equal chance and something else was at play, dataminers would have told is by now. Like I said above, Thor is just a popular dino because it’s the only one that does what it does (though not being too hard to make does help).

2 Likes

The fundamentals of arena have been broken by Ludia to appease the spoiled minority. Most players wanna play arena for the incs and DBI, no one cares about who they play so long as they win. So if you play a balanced team for the good of community, the loser in this is you and your time. Ludia has ensured that the playerbase will have to resort to being jerks to each other to get their incs and DBI.

Look at the bigger picture beyond creatures and boosts. Arena in general is a luck fest combined with a clogged Arena 11 and 12 that effectively ensures that the above RNG fest is made more pronounced. Players have to fight each other more fiercely because the top players have “stolen” 10s of thousands of trophies from the rest and then lost all of them in the monthly reset. Like analogy for the actual global economic reality. The rich get richer than squander their money on economic blackholes.

11 Likes

I know, I dont see anyone saying the chance isnt equal either. But the fact is I’ve played more games against thor than games not against thor

I wouldn’t question that you see a ton of Thors, I know I do. But there are other explanations for that besides the drawing being uneven. And again, simply seeing a lot of a dino doesn’t mean that it’s too strong by default.

If you do want to test whether the drawing is equal, why don’t you keep track of how often you draw each of the dinos on your team, over a long period of time?

1 Like

Yes I can do that, but I’ve already done one with thor from opponent and the result is outrageous when the appearance rate is a lot higher than 50%
Remember you’re drawing 4 creatures out of 8, not 4 creatures out of 5

All that means is that more than 50% of players run Thor, which isn’t unreasonable. For every time you DO see Thor, there’s another opponent who had a Thor that didn’t draw it. You almost always play different opponents, it’s not like you’re playing the same person over and over again. So checking the odds of a single player (yourself) is really the only way to meaningfully test that.

Do you not get it yet? Even if all my opponents has thor, it should still only gives a 50% chance of seeing it, if that’s the logic then I will see thor whenever someone has it

That’s just not how probability works. Since not every opponent actually has Thor, you can’t lump every opponent together into a single statistic, at least not one that means what you think it does.

2 Likes

Yes, the system is causing a group of people taking trophies away from everyone else, affecting not only other shores player but also slowly affect the players below too. However this is a different problem

And since not every person has thor, it means the chance of seeing a thor should be lower than 50%, not what I’ve got from my experiment
I was assuming everyone has thor when I was trying to explain just now because that would be give the highest probability which is 50%

Picture this. There are three hats. One hat has a red ball and a blue ball. The second has a red ball and a yellow ball. And the third hat has a red ball and a green ball. For ten rounds, you draw one ball from each hat. Now, which color ball is going to get drawn the most? Red, right? But your odds of drawing red from a given hat were always 50/50. The only reason you see more red balls is because more hats had red balls to begin with. So the reason you see more Thors is that more players (more hats) have them, not because Thor inherently has a higher chance of being drawn to your team. It may even be a lot higher than 50%: in the above example, the chance of drawing red is 3x higher than any other ball. Imagine what would happen with 1000 hats, where each hat had a red ball and one ball that was a unique color. But it doesn’t mean that Thor has inherently higher odds of being drawn.

3 Likes

That still gives an average of 50%
In your example red ball does have 3x higher chance to be drawn, but that’s out of 6 different balls, its 3/6 balls in total. Although they’re in separate hats, if the drawn rate of red ball is equal in all 3 hats, the probability can be analysed together

And its not just the chance of drawing it. Your opponent may not use all four dinos in a match. If they win, you may only see one or two members of their team. So they may choose to use Thor more often, but again it doesn’t mean Thor is drawn more often.