Hey all! A couple of days ago I ran a poll on how unbalanced the Class Moves are (Topic name: Research Polls for new GamePress Article). Well I have turned the data into an article, and I’d love for you all to read it! If you can share this with your alliances too, then it’d be appreciated! Thank you in advance!
I personally think we have too much dodge nullification but your deceleration removal argument is very good.
I’ll just copy my response from the other thread to continue the discussion, though I did add a few things.
The article brings up some decent points. Your notes about maintaining ability parity between the class moves and the futility of giving fierce attacks the ability to cleanse deceleration are spot on. Having vulnerability instead of decel might work as a solution to the resilient meta. As a counterpoint though, plenty of resilients focus heavily on deceleration (e.g. Stegodeus, Gigaspikosaur), but they aren’t overpowered. In fact, some are among the weakest members of their rarity. So how can deceleration be an inherently overpowered ability? I would argue that the main problem is that a select group of high damage resilients (e.g. Diorajasaur, Mammolania, Hadros Lux, Ceramagnus) benefit too heavily from getting to attack twice in a row. I would rather address their damage output directly, instead of nerfing the entire class when many resilients aren’t even close to OP. And even if some resilients do benefit too much, dinos two-shotting dinos from the class they counter is pretty common. What cunning or fierce worth their salt can’t finish off their fierce or resilient opponents in two hits?
The issue of dodge removal is… complicated. Its an objective fact that many cunnings don’t use dodge at all. On one hand, that means that any changes to dodge removal on resilient attacks wouldn’t have any impact on a significant number of cunning matchups. On the other hand, if dodge is such an uncommon ability, why does every resilient and their mother need the ability to remove it? I think precise could work as a solution here, allowing some counterplay, but giving multi-turn dodge moves and cloak a mich needed buff (since they would only get bypassed, not removed, requiring resilients to continue to use resilient attacks and potentially sacrificing damage output). In any case, I think a classes primary moves should benefit that class in the majority of matches against the class they’re designed to counter: that means that focusing resilient attacks around dodge removal isn’t very helpful. Now to be fair, vulnerability is absolutely a viable alternative to deceleration to fill this requirement (as are shields). If dodge removal is to be addressed, it should be done with the knowledge that it by itself won’t have as strong an affect on the cunning/resilient matchup as some people might think. But then again, maybe that’s what some people want?
One thing that surprised me was that I was kind of put off by the tone of superiority that the article seemed to be written with. Now it is an opinion piece, but sections of it felt like you were speaking for the whole community, which based on your poll clearly is not the case. The majority isn’t always right, but dismissing the dodge removal argument like everyone who holds it doesn’t have the brain cells to know what’s right for the game is kind of condescending. Saying you turned the poll data into an article isn’t quite accurate when you mostly sideline the most popular suggestions in favor of promoting your own solution. The arguments for said solution are well constructed, don’t get me wrong, but it doesn’t quite match the ethos of “making the community’s voice heard”. It’s true that changing dodge removal won’t make as big of an impact as changing deceleration, but maybe some of us don’t think resilient attacks themselves need to be nerfed that much. And then to end the article with a call to action to Ludia to implement your solution, as if this is what the community agreed to, is perhaps reaching too far (though you never call for any specific solution, its pretty clear from the article which one you would prefer). I would never call on Ludia to implement a feature that most of the community was still divided on, and Gamepress has even more influence than the average forum user. If you just wanted to write an article about why you think deceleration is the problem with resilient attacks, that’s fine. From that perspective, it’s a great article. But don’t act like the community has any sort of consensus on the issue when your own poll shows that this clearly is not the case.
That said, I hope you don’t take this as me bad mouthing Gamepress. You guys consistently put out some quality articles, and I respect the experience of the authors as some of the highest leveled players in the game. I can’t say I would be 100% against swapping deceleration for vulnerability, but I do think the problem of high damage resilients could be addressed more directly, instead of affecting every dino that uses resilient attacks. Even if you let some of these dinos retain superiority attacks, there are far more balanced or underpowered resilients than OP ones - wouldn’t it be easier to just leave resilient attacks alone for the most part, and instead focus on balancing those select problem resilients in other ways (lower damage, decrease attack multipliers, replace resilient attacks with normal impacts/rampages, reduce or remove resistances, remove their ability to cleanse distraction, etc.)? It may take more work, but I think there would be far less collateral damage. Besides, some dinos (like Ceramagnus) may still need additional nerfs even after this switch. That’s just my take though. I would be very curious to see how this change would impact those balanced and underpowered resilients, and to see how giving the resilients who already do too much damage access to vulnerability plays out. I guess we’ll have to just keep throwing ideas around.
I actually wonder why anyone would think trying to fix resilient moves is going to make the game more.fun?
Right now, Ludia has messed up arena so badly and so thoroughly, they might as well close it down and just make JWA a raiding game with weekend tournaments. It isn’t just Resilient moves that are messing the balance. Its the crit mechanism. The bad matching system. The lack of means to progress once you hit Aviary. The class system is irrelevant if arena is broken. Doesn’t matter if you have enough lifeboats or not if your ship has already been ripped huge hole. The ship is gone and no one is happy.
Each fix is one less annoyance. Let’s say they ballance resilient strike, it would be a massive improvement because it’s such a massive part of the meta.
Plus it’s nice to have more communication and answer/improvements.
This is has some very good points. I don’t think it has a one size fits all solution.
Doesn’t change that if you get the wrong hand you lose anyway. You miss a crit or get crit. It’s just the same experience with an illusion of improvement.
Ludia has failed in how it has progressed arena. No point putting lipstick on a pig and hope it will one day be prom queen.
There was some hope before 2.0 but after the introduction of 30/30 trophies and the Shores matchmaker, who cares? Ludia can make 100 changes to the meta and it still would be a bad aspect of the game simply because there is no progress. No joy. No fun. Just grind and anger.
Shores matchmaking does look hideous but I’m not and won’t any time soon be there so can’t have an opinion.
Pvp has many different little & big things that need or could use fixing/improvement, but it doesn’t stop you from playing. Each time someone bring attention to and a potential solution to a problem is healthy for the game & community, each fix is a step in the right direction.
Either we don’t plsy at all or we try to fix it, I say try to fix it.
It really isn’t that bad when you accept that this is how the game is meant to be now, the early days of the game 1.0 are gone. This is JWA now. Fix what’s broken but there’s no going back.
(Just going to copy and paste). While I may not agree with your opinion @Bart_H on decel being the main issue we can all agree something needs to be done.
Others and myself have also expressed stats could be changed in order to balance out some resilient creatures. Deceleration I don’t think is bad cause well it a core feature of the game, and it worked fine before but what did change especially in 2.0 is stats and kits. Some like the towers got double rampages along with high attack, others who had high attack got better multiplyers and way to work around what should be there counters (tryko and tryostronix) other got attack buff or weren’t nerfed to fit in the new version of the game. But the biggest thing is ludia has forgotten a big rule of this game The more health and attack a dino gets the slower it must be or the more speed and attack it also get then the less health it must have. . it was rule that was used for years until 2.0 and that was thrown out the window. See having a tank with high health and two rampages isn’t bad but what is bad when it does combined literally 6,000 damage why would a tank designed to counter speedster with low health need to do that much damage then add to that that some of the tankest build are literally faster than lesser health builds. Brachiosaurus literally has the exact same health as apatosaurus and more attack and more ways of Lessing damage but for some reason brachi gets to be 10 points faster and have a 30% Crit chance and apatosaurus meanwhile is stuck having the second lowest damage in the game and the lowest speed and only 1x multiplyers . Does this literally bother no one else. But but Funtime it’s an exclusive and I’m stop you right there and tell you to shove that exclusivity right back down where you got it cause exclusiveness shouldn’t mean balance and logic should be thrown out the window. Plus if that were the case the best creatures should be the ones that are the hardest to get yet that not how thing are. Plus sometimes logic is just something you have to consider I mean look at trex it has the second highest damage in the game and yet it’s slower than mortem rex that can cleanse distraction and has less health than acrocanoto even though acro has more speed and less attack so then why shouldn’t trex have more bulk to handle resilient more effectively. I could go on but both stats and moves allow for resilient to be just so op to just really strong.
Honestly, unless we’re talking about a full boost reset. I’d take a hard pass on any kind of class rework.
Now I’m not saying I don’t agree with the op or don’t think his solution would lead to a more diverse meta. I just don’t care enough about a balance change that could potentially lead to me dropping a few Dino’s.
It’s just would not provide a positive enough effect on the arena to match the effort it would take to “possibly” (cause I’m not even sure if I would but with massive meta changes the potential is there)
All the other issues like trophies awarded, increase of rewards beyond avairy, shores match making which has a trickle down effect way below shores. Need to take priority.
I don’t care if I’m using resilient, fierce, or cunning… if a match was decided before it even started because me or my opponent has such a level and boost advantage the other is simply going through the motions it doesn’t really matter if we’re using 1 cunning out of 8 or 3 out of 8. Because that’s the kind of matches the bulk of the playerbase experience day in and day out.
So sure this needs done and is a good idea. But if the bigger problems aren’t addressed first it’s not gonna matter to most players arena “experience”
I kind of agree with this … “it is what it is …”. In the arena you win some, you lose some, most of the time you have no chance to influence it. Or you smash your poor enemy or you got smashed by them, sometimes matches are very close so I see no problem in this. In the perfect imagination everyone has the same pool dinos to choose from. So if the meta is resilient you should adapt, that is what makes you better player with higher rank. You never know, maybe new update will be a huge one, for example favourable for cunning creatures and we will all jump on them … I remember times when higher velociraptor decide who will win the match …
To be said, my biggest problem with matches overall is speed tie, freaking hell speed tie … I would like to see creatures do their damage output in the same time when speed tie happen without any further effects (no stun, no decel, no distraction etc., just damage output in the same time) I hate Ludia when I lose the match just because I am slower to click the button or my connection is worse or I am further away from the server? Cmon? That is not acceptable for me. If I lose because enemy draw 4 resilient creatures and I draw only 3 + 1 cunning that´s fine for me, because I can find the way how could I win, but I can never find the way how can I win with speed tie disadvantage. That is the most frustrating fact for me in the arena and in the tournaments.
I will still argue the dodge removal is the real issue. Decel resistance is a thing so removing decel has a negligible impact, dodge removal has make an entire strategy worthless. The over all effects of the decel is significantly less than the meta defining dodge removal
P.S.- I don’t understand the point of holding a poll if 2 independent sources net the same result and you choose to ignore it.
Running a poll and then and then ignoring the actual results cause they’re agains your opinion is something like this
Lets say a cook makes pizza with only cheese and ketchup on it. Then for whatever reason the cook adds pineapples, salad and sausages to the pizza and it’s the only pizza on the menu(i know i’m giving the stupidest possible example but who am i to know what people put on a pizza). Then the customers think it’s just too much and start complaining, the employes run a poll and the majority of the customers vote that the salad is too much. The employes are suposed to infrom the cook to go and remove the salad. However the very employe suposed to inform the cook is agains that and wants the cheese removed(the very cheese that was never considerd a problem on the original pizza). Knowing that they have more influence on the cook then the avarege customer the employe tells the cook that the cheese is too much. Then pizza ends up even worse.
Basicly this deceleration was never considerd a problem on superiority strike, neither is percision now, but fully removing the thing which then allows for a free massive hit(mainly for evasive stance) is just an overkill
Resilients remove everything a cunning could dream of, they’re suposed to counter them but not wipe em out of existance
KETCHUP? 
I think what we are seeing is so many dinos resistant to speed decrease that by focussing on that as the major issue is a mistake.
I said on the other post that the big problem is the way resilient can negate cloak, evasion, dodge and apply damage at the same time. There is simply no counter and by using speed decrease as a way to stem the flow of resilient ruling the arena it’ll make no difference from aviary up.
Maxima, Gemini, Magna, Hadros, Cera, Mortem, Mammolania, and even Monolometrodon are all 100% resistant to speed decrease and all are relevant so I fail to see why resilient creature balancing should be based on the speed reducing effect.
I thought the same thing, the ketchup pizza gonna give me nightmares
Honestly why can’t they be slowed would it change there matchups not really. They still be slow but on some occasions they could be slower. This would allow go more way to counter them like lux literally has same problem tryko has at the beginning of 2.0 yet no one I complaining about it even though it’s way stronger than tryko ever was. Mammolania has not only some damage of the highest hp but also 50% armor 50%! Add to that dig in and bellow which shield it and keep the speed control then also add to that the ability to almost two shot every single fierce creature and then add you can’t slow it down. Why? Why does Ludia keep making resilients that strong tbh.
Plus if there resilient doesn’t slow we basically just go back to the raptor meta or in this case the cunning meta of 1.0. We don’t want really any class to be the top class we just want balance.
Lux at least doesn’t have armor or any armor piercing. defense shattering attacks. add to that its an Apex, leads people to be more ok with it. but it still has a problem. It does too much damage to fierce while keeping the speed control.
The class system is fine, the resilient have to defeat the cunning, the fierce the resilient, and the cunning the ferocious, the only problem is that the dodge is useless against the ferocious which is the ones it would have to counteract and it doesn’t, and then there are creatures that are of 2 classes so they have an advantage over others.
It is fine to slow down the cunning, as it is the only class that does not need as many speed increases, as the fierce and resilient, while a sprinter needs a total of 5 average points to reach 140 speed, The resilient and the ferocious need 10-15 increases to match the sprinters, the problem in the PvP arena is the increases and the bad match, where a team A of level 20 let’s say, is paired with a team B of level 30, that’s the problem with this game, the exaggerated increases and the matchmaking.
If they fix that, they don’t need anything else to make the game even.
The problem is neither the creatures, nor the classes.
The class system is fine like this.