How to balance the Swap in Damage

Your name is literally swap aIot guess you like to swap a lot l

3 Likes

Swap attacks are not dumb. It adds something extra to the game. You can easily predict a swap by swapping into SR3, phourex or anything with an attacking on escape ability. People are starting to unlock hydraboa which will greatly punish the swappers

2 Likes

You know I would, but I’m still trying to make sense of what the OPs solution is. As for whether or not SIAs are too strong, we’ve all had that discussion before, and I’m not seeing anything revolutionary here.

1 Like

I would like to see a whole suite of these kinds of abilities to help counter swappers.

1 Like

Its doesnt add up anything see you are all, its not strategic a lot of these swap in damage can clean themselves up from lock ir are outright inmune to being pinned down, its boring having to face countless of no brained stategies cause they can keep swaping and swaping and swaping withlittle to no consecuence, besides what I suggest doesnt make them useless It just stops SI damage from being abuses to ridículous points, no More stealing victories that you shouldnt have no More swap in chains

1 Like

I guess I don’t have a problem with constantly swapping in or out. Swapping without a SIA is inherently risky because your opponent gets in a free hit, and swapping with an SIA locks you down for a bit even if your opponent does cleanse (though it would be nice if those cleansing moves did less damage sometimes: looking at you Dracoceratops), so you have a bit of time to deal with them, and a swap-out is usually telegraphed after the cleanse.

No, the main “problems” with SIAs in my view come down to two factors:

  1. Unpredictability. Unlike every other move in a dinos kit, players have no way of knowing when or even if their opponents is going to use one, much less which one it will be. This surprise factor is fairly unique to SIAs. The counterplay is basically to assume your opponent is going to use an SIA every time you get to low health, but there’s no guarantee that your opponent will even have an SIA, causing you to misplay and swap out when you shouldn’t.

  2. Ultra-priority. Not only can you not predict when a SIA is coming, there’s nothing you can really do to counter one (outside of preventing the swap in the first place, which is negated by any dino with Swap prevention immunity). Even priority moves like Instant Invincibility won’t save you, when again they would work against any other move in the game.

Alone, having either of these traits would be fine. But combined they create a legion of dinos that can blindside you with secret ultra-priority moves. This is why SIAs have come to dominate the meta: all meta dinos seem to either have a strong SIA or counter swapping, sometimes both at once (like Phorurex). Of course we’re used to it by now, and there’s enough of an ecosystem built around swapping now that it (mostly) feels balanced. But we forget that any dino lacking in SIAs or anti-swap just cannot be meta relevant, pushing what would otherwise probably be completely viable picks to the side. The fact is that the swap meta doesn’t leave a place for all dinos; and since the swap meta IS the meta, this effectively excludes entire portions of the game.

So for balance, I think either the surprise element or ultra-priority need to go. For the surprise element, the only solution would be to reveal teams before the match, but that might increase drop rates since you’ll be able to tell more frequently when a match is unwinnable from the start - so that’s NOT a good idea. So if we’re leaving the unique surprise element of swap-in attacks alone, that means we have to deal with their ultra-priority. One solution would be adding new moves that specifically target swap-in dinos like @VeteranSen suggested here. It would be even better if these effects activated after a swap but before a SIA (sort of like how trap cards in Yu-Gi-Oh activate in response to another card, but the trap cards effects resolve first). That way, when your opponent does use an SIA, your dino can distract them, stun them, or put up a shield. While these moves would help counter and deter swapping strategies, their main drawback is that they don’t directly help any non-meta dinos that don’t recieve these abilities, leaving them as useless as before. So I think a more universal solution is needed.

The simple universal solution is to give SIAs the same priority as other moves. That way any faster or higher priority move can counter them. Trying to use Swap in Stunning Strike? Too bad, I used Instant Invincibility Taunt. Or my cunning just used Distracting impact against your slower resilient - forcing swappers to spend their boosts a bit more evenly, since currently all they really need is enough health to survive until they can swap out and maybe pour the rest into attack.This instantly would give tons of currently off-meta dinos options to counter SIAs. But not all SIAs are really problematic, and some like Swap In Distraction and Swap In Invincibility need their priority to function. For those moves, they would be granted the same level of priority as stuff like Instant Invincibility - so really, only damaging and rending SIAs would have normal priority.

In exchange for this general nerf against swapping, they deserve a quality of life buff, and that would be letting you choose which dino you swap to after an automatic swap move instead of it just being the next dino in line. That way, swapping strategies that use these moves are less dependent on the RNG of drawing your team in the right order. Honestly I think this change should be in the game already, but swapping is currently too strong to justify a buff like that, even if it makes the game better to be. In the context of the general swapping nerf I suggested, this buff would be far more justified.

14 Likes

I would be fine with that, my principal problem Is having to make a Team specifically countering SI damage because RNG and the fact that a lot of the SI have inmunity to being locked

2 Likes

The rise of on-escape moves and no-escape act as a counter to swap-ins. Swapping is more balanced than ever and doesn’t need to be nerfed. It’s simply a part of the game, and knowing how to anticipate and capitalize on swaps is a crucial aspect of PVP.

Without it the game would be extremely boring and one-dimensional. If players are having problems with swaps, then they should use dinos with on-escape moves or no-escape. Problem solved.

3 Likes

IMO this is the bigger problem with swap-in moves. They should go in turn order–they’re still advantageous because you get a turn when you otherwise wouldn’t, but it prevents stuff like Spyx, for example, from eating a single hit then being ganked with no real response.

Certain swap-ins also wouldn’t really matter in terms of their functionality if they lost super-priority, and for those which do need it (i.e. swap-in invinc, swap-in dodge, etc), they can get it. It provides a better route of balancing. You basically cover that in your post, but I think it’s worth reiterating.

3 Likes

I mean Swap-in headbutt is a thing.

1 Like

The problem isn’t that swapping can’t be countered, but that those counters aren’t universal. Not everything has an on escape move - and if you don’t, and aren’t a strong swap in dino yourself, you probably won’t see play. While swap in moves are good against pretty much anything that doesn’t hard counter them (e.g. rend resistance or on escape users), not everything has the ability to counter swap in moves. Swap in attack users are useful in most situations, and therefore their counters see play, whereas anything else doesn’t really have a purpose. The entire meta revolves around swapping, and if you can’t swap in or counter swappers, you’re basically useless.

6 Likes

Yeah I agree that this is the bigger problem, and like you mention here it isn’t even in all SIAs, just damaging ones.

3 Likes

While it’s true that not every creature has an on-escape, more and more creatures have been released that do feature these moves. As a player, if you suspect a swap is about to occur it’s up to you to act accordingly and swap as well, either to a swapper of your own or to a creature with no-escape. You can also fodder something off.

Additionally, you can stick it out and punish the swap-in dino with your current creature. Most of the meta is stun resistant anyway, so that aspect isn’t terrible. Swapping adds way more than it takes away from the game, and prevents nitro-boosted creatures from decimating everything.

1 Like

Thats the thing, it’s just a suspicion: you can’t ever be sure, and it’s an uncertainty that’s present in every turn of every match. Even if your opponent doesn’t have a single swap in dino, it still affects how you play out the matchup. It’s weird to think about, but it’s the only “hidden” option in the game (besides maybe swapping to a dino with a counter). You know your opponent dino’s 4 moves and passives, or that they have the option to swap to something. But any SIA is basically a priority move that your opponent has no idea about. On any turn of the game, your opponent may damage you, stun you, distract you, slow you down, put up a shield, etc.

At least most of these are non-damaging give you a turn afterwards to swap out yourself. In fact, I like the fact that most SIAs make swapping an actually viable option by protecting you - like you said, they do add a lot of variety to the game. But for damaging SIAs… the only universal counterplay is to just swap to something else any time you’re on low health. And like I just said, swapping without an SIA is an inherently bad option (letting your opponent get in a free attack), so you’re only going to swap if you have a dino with a SIA to swap to. This way, the prevalence of swapping only encourages more swapping, cementing the centrality of SIAs in the meta. It doesn’t help that some of the best anti-swap dinos are some of the best swappers themselves (like Phorurex). Or you get synergies between strong anti-swap dinos and swappers (like Testa with it’s bodyguards SR3 and CompC). It’s all swap and anti-swap. When the only option for dinos without swap in or on escape abilities is to just swap out into what’s likely a free hit whenever you get to low health, why should you even bother using these dinos? Hence why there needs to be better universal counterplay to swap in attackers.

4 Likes

@Sir_Swap_A_lot raises some fair points. It’s ok to disagree with them, but it’s better to actually describe why you disagree (as I did above) than to tell a person to just stop debating.

3 Likes

You’re being a tad presumptuous there. You have no idea what kind of strats I employ nor how much “thought” goes into my play, so let’s not stoop to ad-hominem attacks.

Countering swaps isn’t that hard, it just takes some getting used to.

Hey everyone, let’s please remember to keep things civil and respect each other even if you disagree!

2 Likes

It doesn’t take a lot of what? Thought? You’re way off the mark. I punish swapping in and out regularly, just need to invest in the proper creatures, etc.

There are several creatures that have either no-escape or on-escape moves, collectively. If swapping in and out is giving you such a hard time, then it would be a good idea to employ a creature(s) that can defend you from this mechanic.

Even if a swapper does finish your dino, you can aways revenge kill and get right back into the match since the swapper will be locked for at least a couple of turns. You just have to build a cohesive team.

Or if you can’t revenge kill the swapper, think 5 steps ahead and predict when it will come back. Opponents may get 1 surprise swap off (seen them try a last ditch effort to finish one of my creatures) but they usually won’t get a second and can be heavily punished if they try.

1 Like

Again, you have no idea how I play. Let’s not make unfounded assumptions.