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I don't care for no escape

While no escape is not the biggest issue in the game, I do not like what it is doing or where moves like this are heading. Its passive and requires no move by the opponent. Also, the effects of dinos are typically status changes…shields, decel, distract, evade, etc. Swap in effects somewhat fall outside of that mold, but they are more like a speed play. No escape literally works by negating a game mechanic, the ability to swap, with no cost to the user. Stun negates an attack, but it takes a turn to do so…this takes nothing to do so and because a usual swap takes place to save a dino, this all but guarantees a kill. Moves like this lead to putting moves like something called Intimidation where a player can only bring out, passively, the weakest dino they have if the op plays a dino with intimidation. Or something like No Speedsters or No Evasion and if that is the only dinos you have, you lose just by them playing that dino. Counter attacks seem like the only acceptable no-cost passive play to me that skirt a mechanic a bit.

No Escape is basically On Escape Pin, meaning it’s a move your creature makes when the opponent tries to swap, like literally any other On Escape ability.

This means that it doesn’t affect all creatures, only the ones that aren’t resistant to Swap-prevention. It also doesn’t work if the creature with the ability is stunned.
So there are ways around it

If the No Escape user swaps out, the opposing creature can too if they’re slower.

I don’t see how countering something with No Escape is any different from, say, swapping in a Dracoceratops against a low-health creature, or swapping in an Alankylosaurus against an Erlidominus. It’s something your opponent can’t see coming, but it’s one of these things we always have to be aware of as a possibility and should be prepared for.

Besides, for No Escape to actually mean anything you have to catch your opponent with a dino that can’t beat your No Escape dino in the first place, otherwise it’s meaningless.

There is strategy to it, unlike the examples for passives you came up with that would require practically zero strategy.

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Sure there is a difference, the player can swap also against draco…its their choice to remain…even if they do not know its coming. With no escape, you have no choice and it costs the other player nothing with no way around it. I am aware of having swap prevention on sone dinos, and its a small portion. That though still does not negate that it removes the game mechanic of swapping when a person typically swaps to avoid losing a dino. Its final, you cannot swap, and you will lose that dino.

And, no escape is not unknown…we can click the dino to see if it has it. If it does and you cannot beat it before it beats you with your current dino, you will certainly lose the dino.

As well the other examples are exaggerated uses of no cost passive abilities that affect game mechanics and not the statuses. Its not a path I would like to see the game take.

An alternative could be something like Revenge Escape, a passive ability that instead of targeting the game mechanic of swapping, it adds a status effect to whatever dino comes out next like distraction or decel. That would still be advantageous to the opponent but not final and not remove the universal ability to swap altogether.

It’s the same with No Escape. If a creature’s HP is getting dangerously low, and you suspect they might have a No Escape creature next, you can always swap to something else. That’s why Swap-utility is so important.

No Escape is a status effect. It’s On Escape Pin. It’s the same as something like On Escape Rampage, or Or any other On Escape ability.

No Escape is even a liability in some cases. The opponent can use hit-and-run moves without going anywhere, and if they are a counter-attacker they can swap without going anywhere, meaning that they don’t trigger the opponent’s counter attack but make use of their own.
A counter-attacker can even wear off a stun by just swapping and not going anywhere, getting free counter damage.

No Escape is not as one-dimensional as you make it out to be.

In the higher arenas, there’s plenty of creatures that have a resistance to Swap-prevention. There’s Stigydaryx, Dracoceratops, Dracoceratosaurus, Tenontorex, Ardentismaxima, Geminititan, Magnapyritor, Phorusaura, Erlidominus, Quetzorion, Spinoconstrictor, Tryostronix, Pterovexus, Utarinex, Mammolania, Monolorhino, Smilonemys, Ardontosaurus, Alloraptor, do I even have to go on?

Yes, but that’s a very big if.

The problem, and its exactly what I am saying, is “if you suspect they have a No esacpe creature next”. This is not the same as swapping out in response to a suspected draco. If the no escape is already on the field, it is already unavoidable. If it came with a cost, it would be fine…but it comes at no cost. Draco causes a hit that can be avoided by the dino they mean to hit, meaning it’s action comes at the cost of swapping and can be swapped against. No escape does not allow that action to occur. I am not sure there is a better way to explain it, but your argument does not negate this.

Yes, it is one dimensional. It is a passive ability with no cost that removes a mechanic when that mechanic is used. We dont see No Anything moves that do not come with a cost when the mechanic is used by the op that sets off the condition. My action does not cause a draco to happen. The comparable move would be a passive ability that automatically swaps to draco when the op tries to to swap at a .4 or less life left. That would make draco similar, but its not similar currently to the point I am making.

Some dinos containing resistance does not change the logic here. Its not a good path to take to offer no cost mechanic removal passive abilities of any kind.

As well, I am not advocating for removing this ability, though in your replies you are forcing me to take that stance because you are concentrating on the move itself while I am concentrating on the application and affect of this move type. Its not a massive problem. I am thinking proactively about Ludia overusing a concept (stat boosts, evasion meta, resilience meta) and stating that a no cost move that affects a game mechanic should not be used. If its going to be used, it should be sparingly else we end up with the possibility of moves like my exaggerated ones above becoming part of the game.

So the problem you have with it is conceptual then?
In other words, it doesn’t matter to you how many creatures there are that are Immune to the ability or situations in which you can use the ability on an opponent to your advantage, or situations in which the ability is useless because the last dino on a team that might otherwise swap can take out the No Escape user anyway, as long as there is a situation in which it removes the opponent’s ability to swap without the use of an actual move, you don’t like it?

As I explained earlier, No Escape does have a cost. There are situations, most common in Epic skill tournaments, where having the ability is a liability. There are also matchups in the arena now and then where No Escape can be used against the user, but I have already explained this in detail. There’s the Smilonemys vs Sarcorixis matchup, the Stigydaryx vs Sarcorixis matchup, the Carnotarkus vs Grypolyth matchup (which I have used before successfully) the Diorajasaur vs Grypolyth matchup(had this one happen yesterday), the Megalogaia vs Purutaurus matchup, and it doesn’t stop there.

That is hardly one-dimensional.

Although, like I said earlier, if you choose to ignore all that and only count situations in which you’re using it against a creature that could get no benefit from it, then it would be one-dimensional, I agree.

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I’m not defending the existence of this ability in the game. I’m just giving counter-arguments since I don’t agree with your arguments. I do not consider the idea of No Escape being unfair threatening, I just disagree.

I happen to think that it complements some of the creatures that have it very well, since a lot of them would be unremarkable without it. Trapping opponents is an interesting niche.

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In part yes it is conceptual. If we see more no cost passive abilities, it will turn the game into something else for the worst.

As I have explained, no escape does not have a cost. A cost is not a situational possibility, it is the effect (which can be negative or positive) of taking an action. The player takes no action, and so accrues no cost. Because it can be used in some ways, which is an exploit by the opposing player, that does not equate to being a cost in relation to how costs exist in this game. Attacks cost a turn, applying effects typically cost a turn. Swap ins cost a turn. No escape cost nothing.

Again, you are trying to find similarities with regarding the core of what I am saying. Anything when viewed from different angles can be found to be similar. Unless you are suggesting that no cost passive effects that limit gameplay mechanics are a good thing, then I think you are misunderstanding my stance here.

And to the last point, there are far more dinos without the resistance like I have said. And the exist of those dinos does not remove the concept of no cost passive abilities affecting game mechanics as being a bad decision.

So an example of a costless passive would be something like Immunity then?

So then you are in favor of no cost passive abilities that affect game mechanics. I think you are making that clear and so I have no response to that. Your opinion is your own, but this type of addition causes more problems down the line. Also, it does complement creatures…and the ability itself is not specifically the issue, it is the application of no cost passive abilities affecting gameplay. I keep saying that…and I think I am done saying it now.

Take Yugioh for example. The difference in gen1 vs current yugioh is staggering. Its staggering because at one point, it was monsters and spells and traps where as now its a totally different game. Used to, you played a monster, op played a monster, and you could supplement the play with spells and traps and the thought of an OTK was non existent. Flash forward to today and there are hand traps, multiple methods of summoning, and the game is built around being OTK. It is now possible for you entire hand to be negated and you can do nothing and the other person wins. This came about from the negation aspect negating game mechanics and causing the other player to have no recourse. This is the path I would rather JWA not take. I would prefer to see the affects of any given dino be relegated to a cost and to a status.

Immunity does not prevent the op from using a gameplay mechanic.

But it is costless, yes?

No Escape doesn’t necessarily negate anything. It’s only useful in specific situations. What I don’t get is how it could be harmful to the way the game works.

It isn’t as crazy as something like “No speedsters”, but could you come up with another example of what might happen if the devs take this further?

You are disregarding what I have said. Cost are not the issue. Pinning is not the issue. Counters are not the issue. Passive abilities are not the issue.

No cost passive abilities that affect gameplay mechanics, as in it cost the op nothing to prevent you from being able to make a play of any sort, is the issue.

Whoa, hold your horses. I was just trying to understand what “cost” means.

I mean another example of no cost abilities that restrict opponent use of game mechanics.

??? I explained it. You were moving away from the point I was making…disregarding what I had said. No need to hold horses.

I do not know of any currently in the game, which is good but also why no escape stands out to me.

A less exaggerated example could be something like a dino that has a passive ability that on any opponents dino brought to the field, they are immediately prevented from attacking, giving the other player two attacks with no cost to use such an ability.