Increase cunning/resil raid utility

Is it really too much to ask that a cunning/resilient or pure cunning be made that can offer Mutual Fury and a Cunning Rampage on a 1 turn CD? One that actually has some HP to boot?? Unlike say, Inostherium or the new Ovi-chicken thing that dies when something sneezes on it?

Kera can break shields, ignore armor and do that in a group strike with ZERO delay… and yet any time a cunning gets a group cunning strike/impact, it needs a delay (Troodonboa etc) and here it is… applying that damage at a reduction to anything with armour and heaven forbid, a shield… cause you have to have one of those minions in every raid.
It makes no sense whatsoever and really limits the number of useful dinos for raiding… especially if your goal is to produce a 2-turn per round raid…

More options… please.

edited out the triggering photo example

coughcoughFukuimimus,Parasauthops,Skoolasaurus,Skoonasauruscoughcough

Also Eremoceros doesn’t need MF it’s fine the way it is

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Re-read the first sentence please…

…and no one is asking for a change to Eremoceros…

You literally posted a change to Eremoceros with the sentence right above it “More options please”. While yes, there arent MANY, there are still some, and some of those options are MONSTERS for raids. Also resilients are usually decent in raids with shields, heals, and GD attacks. Now cunnings usually arent good. But there are some that work ok, and some cunning resilients that are scary in raids. Like Jacelin said, Fukuimimus and Parathops are great raid healers with group damage. Parathops focuses more on healing and group damage, and Fukuimimus seems to allow Group Dodge (unsure, no one I know has it yet) with a heal, along with a strong GCR (though I agree that delay is ridiculous). Skoolasaurus has group Shields, distraction, cleanse, AND nullification. Skoonasaurus is basically Ardent but better in most situations. Also something that would be nice in raids is Fearless Flap, which does target all opponents. Sadly most people dont have creatures with Fearless Flap at high levels because Shields are everywhere and it doesnt break shields. It is a good distraction tool though. Now FA kinda sucks because Flocks in boss raids suck. You lose one, and it’s gone for a while, with the raid healer unable to bring it back. But overall cunnings are starting to get better in raids, but I doubt they will ever be great in raids due to the build Ludia usually decides. Low health, Medium damage, High Speed single target elimination, which isnt great for PvE raids.

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Lol… yes, as an example. I never said, “change Eremoceros”… just used it as an example of what Ludia could produce as a more raid viable dino.

Seems we started off with a Distracting Rampage… throw em a pic to obfuscate the message. :rofl:

“…a cunning/resilient or pure cunning be made that can offer Mutual Fury and a Cunning Rampage on a 1 turn CD”

That was the whole framing of the discussion; more Mutual Fury dino options, preferably of the cunning or cunning/res variety… and wouldn’t it be nice if they had a group cunning strike/rampage.

I feel that unique level raid choices are pretty good. Legendary level raid choices are where good choices really start to dwindle and this is simply a matter of math’ing out a 2-turn strat looking at damage for lvl 20 dinos and narrowing it down to what’s left… a few good choices and lots that can fill a very RNG type strat role.

Para was a good step forward. Some of the newer dinos are also fine… minus silly delays and cooldowns. But there still seems to be a few voids.

Mutual Fury is not a good raid option. You have Tryo and Irri for damage boosts and Tuora for Speed (much better speed) and this practically can force a weird strat or using Parathops. Plus the part you likely want (damage increase) is a FIERCE characteristic. So really for raids you would want something else like a better distracting raider. Most bosses have around 50% distraction resistance, so more things with abilities like a Group Debilitating Distraction but with a 2 turn cooldown would be nice, or just more group cunning the moves on creatures. Plus with raids sometimes people dont go for the quickest strat, though that may just be me. And a lot of the lower level raids are kind of against cunnings just from their movesets anyways.

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Well I guess we’ll have to remove all the Mutual Fury strats from our repertoire at SleeplessHunters then. :upside_down_face:

Common scenario… higher speed MF dino is used to speed team (namely Thor) above the fastest minion’s speed, Thor kills minions and another dino applies cunning to remove damage increase and reduce damage. Next turn, MF dino further reduces damage and with a cunning strike, boss cannot crit = lower RNG strat.

One of the most reliable Phorurex strats out there utilizes two Mutual Fury dinos. One of the best ParaT strats out there (IMO) uses 'ceros or 'chops and a cunning strike dino; ParaT or Dilorano. Some of the most vetted Hydra Boa strats out there utilizes a 136+ speed Indoraptor G2. We have a number of Ref strats with 136+ speed Indoraptor G2 and they are rock solid reliable. A number of Cera strats that are very reliable. Hadros… a 133+ speed Inosth or MF dino… and you don’t need a Tuora. One of the first 8t strats for Gorgo, uses a 136+ speed Indorap, Gem, Gorgo, and Thor… it’s reliable as well. I mean, before the level cap was introduced, we were running people through Apex at the tune of 30+raiders every night on these strats… I would say that makes them well vetted.

There are lots of ways to skin a cat but to say that MF is not a good option is an opinion I can’t agree with.

If you want a good Mutual Fury creature, then Cunning-Resilient is not the class you’re looking for.

It’s technically a Cunning-Fierce(or Wildcard if you consider cleansing as Wildcard) type move

It’s technically… looking at what Ludia has already created to ‘define’ what a mutual fury dino is… a cunning (Inostherium, Indo G2) or a fierce-resil (enteloceros, entelochops) or a fierce like kera.

Can be a lot of things apparently, but hey, a wildcard would be cool too!

I said it was a bad raid move, not unusable. You missed the context for that. And again there are other better and less risky options for damage buffs and speed. I also never said the strats werent viable (far from it, most of the time when I do Parathops people ask to do the Echops strat because its quick) but most of the time, MF is just not a great risk to take. At least it used to not be. With Parathops its now a decent option due to the optimal builds usually being slow and beefy, but it’s still not a good option because not only are there better options out there, there are less risky options out there, but the dinos with these options actually have use outside of slightly distracting the boss, which again most are 50% resistant to, if not more. I wouldnt mind seeing MF on more dinos, it’s an interesting move, but to put it onto more cunning just to make them “raid viable” I just dont see being practical. Maybe on a new cunning fierce that actually works with it’s moveset. That would be neat. Plus when was the last time Mutual Fury was on a new dino, 2.11? And it was on one creature. So more would be nice.

The Echops strat is quick, yes… it’s ‘risks’ are easily calculable, just like with any other boss. You gain a cunning strike and because of that, you don’t have to deal with the extra RNG of crits… that’s precisely why that raid is so safe.

Because of MF, you have removed the minions from the equation. Yet more RNG you don’t need to deal with because Thor KO’s them before they can attack. It’s a “good” raid move because it ends in victory at very high probability, not the other way around. So again, not sure what you’re going on about except maybe a lack of imagination in where it can be used effectively.

And… it doesn’t matter that a boss is resistant. They’re pretty much resistant to everything to some degree. Only matters that a) you can remove their chance to crit and b) that you can reduce their damage to the point it’s easily healed through for the next round. Case and point, the triple carry (Enteloceros, Para, Skoola, Thor) strat for Gorgotrebax.

The problem with Tryo is that he’s a 3-turn option… and nothing wrong with 3-turns but when you’re carrying dozens of people a night through Apex raids, it does add a lot of time and opportunity for human error. IF you can do the same raid in 2-turns safely, at a comparable degree of success… then you may have to question the efficiency of a 3-turn.

That leaves Irritator who is the right tool for some jobs… just not any where you might utilize the speed increase and/or damage/crit reduction… and we’ve been through one of those scenarios.

WRT Cunning or cunning-fierce or cunning-resil raid viability… let’s use an example.

The Eremoceros example I used earlier but before anyone is triggered, let’s call it Premoceros. Has Camouflage, Mutual Fury, Cunning Rampage and Dig In… 126 speed (just right) and 10% armour.

MF to start the round… or perhaps, reduces boss damage to some degree with Camo… say, in case boss attacks lowest HP on its first move. Now it’s doing so with reduced dmg and against dodge. Or a more traditional scenario where… speed is boosted with MF, Thor takes out minions and/or Para finishes them up applying cunning strike to the boss. Next turn, Cunning Rampage to further reduce dmg… boss has no crit chance and deals significantly less damage, which is likely easily recovered with Para’s heal.

So yes… I believe there;s some lack of imagination here because that seems extremely practical to me. And, only having 2 “practical” options seems very limiting, which takes a lot of fun out of the planning phase.

I’ve been running this raid for over 2 months now without failure and the only reason I bothered creating it is because a) 3+ turn strats aren’t necessary and b) the 2-turn strats are rife with RNG, relying on crits and minion RNG; debuff over attack.

Because of Mutual Fury, you have taken Wuero completely off the table leaving 2 round of potential damage from Koola and easily calculable damage from the boss which isn’t detrimental to the success of the raid. Because of Mutual Fury in round 4, you have completely eliminated the need to worry about minions in Round 3.

So create me a 2-turn raid with one of your ‘practical’ options, to a similar degree of success.

Funny enough, most of my videos are random strats with plenty of imagination. So I dont think there’s a lack there. Maybe it’s just personal experience with how we’ve each seen Mutual Fury used, but I have not seen MF being a good option compared to RtC on a Tryo/Irri and GA on a Tuora/Ceramag. And also that Premoceros… good job youve gotten rid of it’s PvP viability. Again I dont mind creatures with Mutual Fury and more options for it. Also good luck finding another good strat for Glytpo that guy is just a pain. Also from what I’ve seen, this works decently well. I can and will test more strats later on once I make them and have time to make them. Problem is can’t test them till Tuesday so that’s gonna be a while.

Not only that, but there could also be a new move added that boosts damage in another way. Again from my point of view and what I’ve seen, Mutual Fury hasn’t done much. But I do see how you see that Mutual Fury is good. I would like more Mutual Fury options and mor ferocity boosting options, and if they make a cunning similar to Fukuimimus in stats, there could be room to add those onto it. Actually kinda want to make that now.

Oh… well it’s going to be really difficult having a discussion about this unless you can concede some points that have been made. As far as not “seeing” something… I mean, there again, you have been given numerous examples and admittedly, have run one of those raids. Maybe it’s just an unwillingness to back off the original assertion?

This hypothetical Premoceros has little PvP viability like 200+ other dinos in Ludia’s lineup, you are correct sir.

The whole point of what is “good” is somewhat moot in this discussion. Good is a highly probable degree of success in the least time possible… and again, a lot of MF raids fall into this category, whether one chooses to see that or not.

Glypto is a pain if you look at it conventionally, yes, I agree and that is one of the strats that gave rise to, “Let’s make a strat that works”. Interesting that you used it as an example. :smiley:

Seem to be quite a few folks who share that opinion but I wanted to check to see if I’m not just way out in left field somewhere.

example

Just to clarify… we are talking about adding more damage boosting or damage boost/speed/cleanse dinos to the game, for more raid strategy options.

And… I have never seen your “videos”. Am I suppose to know who you are? I don’t exactly follow the YouTube crowd, sorry.

No, I dont expect you to know me. I dont expect anyone too. And yes, we are indeed talking about more damage boosting creatures for raids, which is kinda why Im currently trying to think of a good Rinchicyon hybrid, as Group Instant Buff seems like a decent raid option at least in theory.