Let’s DISCUSS Trophies and battling

There are many posts about how ‘unfair’ it is, folks losing hundreds of trophies and losing ‘tons’ of battles in a row. But let’s take an actual look at how Trophies work. I really would prefer if there is no ‘unfair’ talk or it sucks talk. Let’s DISCUSS this for what it is. Thank you.

TLDR: It is not a static game where you will stay at the same trophy level or constantly increase in trophies. It is designed so you will fluctuate. As you level up your team, you increase in trophies. If you do not level up your team, you stay in the same Trophy “range” until you do level up or create something. And you will not remain constant in your trophy count, it will always be a range.

From what I see, it is supposed to work like this: You level up your team and gain trophies. All is well. You reach a certain level, depending on your skill and team, and you hit your upper range. You are battling others with higher-level teams and start to lose, you also lose trophies. You will lose trophies until you meet the bottom end of your range then start to win more than you lose. This is the design of the gameplay.

The people you are battling at your peak, that have larger monsters, have been on a losing streak. They are now several hundred trophies lower than they should be. It is their time to win more than lose and gain trophies. You will lose trophies until you hit a level where YOU are the one with the ‘over leveled’ team (Spelled ‘OP’) and start to win more than you lose.

Your opponents will come on and complain that they battled someone too hard for their level and caused them to lose many trophies. They will sink down until THEY are the one with the ‘over leveled team’ and start to win more than they lose. Wash, rinse and repeat.

When folks come on and state they were at 3800 Trophies and are now at 3300, that 3800 was their team/skill cap. They started losing more than they win. Once they hit 3300, they will start wining more than losing and go back up to 3800… or maybe higher if they leveled something up.

I have seen this happen several times with my team. My team remained constant, I did not add or level anything up in over a month. I go up to ~4100 (my upper cap) and down to ~3800 (my lower cap). I have winning streaks and losing streaks. I win enough to always have an incubator but at times it takes several battles. Other times I win several in a row.

I added a new Dino to my team. My cap went up 100 trophies and the bottom of my range went up 100+ trophies as well. As I learn to integrate my new addition my range is also getting narrower.

So if you are on a losing streak, I believe it is designed into the game. You might do a lose 3 win one until you hit your lower cap, then do a win 3 lose 1 until you hit your top cap. Then repeat. A player who can sit at a steady trophy level is the anomaly I believe. That means win one, lose one, win one, lose one. A player might have times when this is the case but will eventually run into players with a much higher team (who have lost trophies) and lose three, win one.

I really do not know what to say to the people who “lost 50 battles in a row”. Perhaps they were just on a lucky streak and got to too high of a cap for their skills/team and the game is correcting for it. It could also be that they lost concentration by being upset so do not think as well as they should, so lose more.

Thoughts?

Trigger warning: For those that consider that a thing…

I believe the more your range fluctuates (difference between high and low trophy count), the less skill the player has and the less diverse their team is. As my skills grow and I create a better team, the narrower the range I get is. Yes, RNG will throw a few battles either way but overall it will narrow as you get better. You develop a team that can take away a lot of the random RNG and learn to counter for it.

A player may occasionally go out of their range, this is acceptable and the game will correct for their team. The Competitions throw all the above out the window as too many level teams are all bunched up together. But if you noticed, after a week or two it started to level out again. I went back to my original ‘range’ once the higher-level teams went to their ‘range’ again.

It all makes sense. I complain about a lot, but I’ve never complained about how many battles I win or lose, because at the end of the week my trophy count is always higher than it was at the beginning. What happens in the middle is the fun part. I’ve never finished a week any other way.

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It should work that way, until RNG hates you and your opponent crits 3 times in a row and you lose a battle you would have won otherwise. :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

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It’s more than just not leveling your team. Everyone is leveling their teams. So you need to level the team faster than those around you to move up. Do nothing you will drop. But all very very slowly.

I do consider the games RND messed up. I hit someone on evade once yesterday. 20 dodges against me. That’s algorithmic. There is not some tiny guy with a real world dice or super accurate temperature probe a hardware true random generator. Dice don’t have runs Psuedo RND does. The runs are messed up and I’d like them to remove the cynical whale milking code exploiting customers. They said they would look at RND and the appalling way it feels in this implementation they need to do that.

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RND stands for Random Number for David right? :joy:

More seriously you are talking about real dice but do you know it’s hard to get it truly random? The way you take it and throw it can mess your results.

As for dodge it’s a 50/50 probability. In a long run you expect to have 1 dodge working out of 2. But you have to remember it tends to be true ONLY if your serie is long enough (100 dodges is not enough to ensure anything) and complete. The problem around is people tend to focus on outstanding series only (like 3 in a row or more) and completely forget about these 2 games where you dodge 2 out of 3 and he dodges 1 out of 3.

Hear me out : I won’t and I never said that RNG cannot be broken. It can.
But I do believe 4 points that makes me thing it’s OK :

  • ludia has not interest at all to mess up with in-game RNG battle. They don’t care about whoever is the winner
  • if you have an unbelievable unfair serie in a matches that would also mean that your opponent has an unbelievable serie too. Roles can be switched in any game
  • I pay attention to every battle I do and I don’t see any problem directly related to RNG. I did see some others things but I have not enough data at the moment to theorize it
  • No one has ever demonstrate something wrong with RNG here. It would take to record thousands matches. Not that easy.

No. Its pseudo random number. Look it up if your interested. Its a bit complex trying to use adds and multiplies to make random numbers.



Ludia implementation is none of these things.

Aha Wikipedia is not the way to go if you want to learn about it :joy:
It’s an introduction to understand what it’s about, but if you want in-depth analysis there are multiples nice thesis about it (you can check the “qualifying studies of prng for cryptography”)

Ah and while the uniform distribution is required for a generator to be a truly random one, how can you possibly say how far is the one used by Ludia??
Do you have the generator? If you do, I would like to run some tests of my own then.
If not it’s just a pointless assumption.

A seeded prng is only at risk when you can extrapolate the seed. Just saying (that’s why seed based on execution or time are vulnerabilities in secure environments)

Yes many algorithms decades of experience long time before Wikipedia not before John von Neumann. No I don’t hand out my code I like owning my own stuff. Even trivial stuff. The issue on this forum is Ludias code not mine please aquire and test that.

As you are aware RNG doesn’t exist. That there is good implementation and bad. I don’t see your problem with my above posts. The fact customers complain about 20 50:50 dodges in a row is good evidence of shocking implementation and Ludia not doing a vanilla rand().

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I swear it’s more weighted rng like if you just lost a few in a row and then come up against a hard counter team like half your teams attacks will crit netting a win that should not have happened. Leans some weight to the predetermined battle outcome post I read recently would be interesting if others felt it was the same for them. I don’t complain when it nets me wins so have finally stopped worrying when it takes them

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I’m not bothered when I win or lose. Its purely professional curiosity at this point.

I want to know if its human error or financial gain writing this implementation. I know it isn’t vanilla rand().

Is the rand() > skill odds +player weight.

Is the player weight a simple rise fall or connected to purchasing habits. Just curious.

Imo definitely connected to spending habits! every time I spend(like over 30$) I seem to win every battle for a certain amount of time before matchmaking starts matching me with teams I should be fighting and my non stop crit rain ends(im talking back to back crit on 5% chance)

Ha ha.Same here got the one time offer at lvl 19 on Saturday. Yesterday get hit by opponent crit every hit. Then like I said 20 opponent evades before 1 hit.

My squad is very balanced I don’t have good or bad dino’s. So I don’t notice the picks. But the Crits and evades had me laughing they were so broke.

Game gently(or violently depending how many crits it throws at you :joy:) encourages consistent spending money on it I’m sure it’s not a coincidence!

You cannot code a TRUE random engine because its always based on an algorithm, which given the right circumstances can repeat!
To get it truely random the algorithm would need to take in some TRUE randomness from the outside world! Like the rolling of a dice result being added to the algorithm!

The fact that I and many others have gotten 6-7 fuses of “10” (which happened to me the other night) proves its not random and there is definitely some sort of bias in the code that causes low fuses to roll more often then anything else!

Take my Indoraptor for example (its not unlocked yet), but my fuses have been as follows (ive noted down and video recorded them all): 10 > 20 > 10 > 20 > 10 > 20 leaving me with my current total of 90 DNA!
That doesn’t look AT ALL random to me, looks like a pattern! And remember there ARE NO patterns in randomness, thats why its called random and not “pattern”.

Edit: Actually randomness DOES have one pattern, its pattern is that is doesn’t follow a pattern lol.

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these two teams are kind of similar in levels but one can break 5k trophies while the other cant. the top team can not break 5k why?

is it because of the level 23 uniques?

Cause of the giga.

that makes no sense… there are people at the top that use giga.

Going back to the original topic. When I 1st clicked on this topic, I thought to myself “holy crap” do I really feel like reading this book? After reading it however, I was really impressed by your thought process and evaluation. Well done.

I agree with almost all of your thoughts, most of all about skill and focus. I’ll admit I lost a few matches simply because I hit the wrong button or simply forgot the attacking Dino’s move set before making my next move.

I actually relate the arena battles to a game of chess. I know there is a lot more randomness to them than in chess. But, I believe in reference to what you spoke about, that most of the RNG can be removed by a properly built team, understanding your opponent’s possible moves, and focus.

Thanks for the good read!

Respect,

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@Easy, Thank you.

I am sure most of us have those moments and hit the wrong attack or forget the other is immune. DOH! More than a few times I have wished I could change my chosen attack while the other player was still ‘thinking’. One of those ‘what was I thinking’ moments.

And yes, we have to take good old RNG into the equation. I think that is one reason people can go well above their team ‘range’ and then go on long losing streaks. And also go well below their team ‘range’’ and then go on long winning streaks.

It happens sometimes when I battle. My opponent dodges every… single… time…!..!..!!! And it goes the other way too. I can two hit that dodging chicken with barely a scratch.

RNG, ‘user error’ and skill can account for swings in Trophy count. But the more proficient a player is, and the more balanced the team, the less RNG really plays a big part. I come across opponents who rely heavily on RNG. If I have two of my counters I will win. If I have one counter it is a tossup. If I have no counters selected by the RNG gods, I need RNG on my side to win. If a player does not have ‘skills’ and know their team, they play the RNG game and can go well above their trophy range when they go on lucky streaks. Then again… The go on unlucky streaks also.

Please don’t think I am saying all players who go on long winning or losing streaks suck at the game. We all run into streaks against lucky RNG players and runs of players with lower level teams who are just better at using them than we are. I have been trashed by players with level 16 Legendary, and conversely, I have decimated similar teams.

I was hoping some of the higher-level players would chime in, to see if my theory is correct or not. It is just a theory based on my few months of playing.

I am at the top cap of my range right now so expect to go on a losing streak and go down a few hundred trophies; the lose 3, win 1 cycle. The first two battles I had this morning are proving it correct. My opponents were higher level and played much better than I did, so they deserved to win. I have a three-hour incubator going and expect to win a battle before it times out. Then I have three more hours to win one. It will take a few battles but I will get one.

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