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Let’s talk about why the Resilients are dominating the meta

It’s no secret that most of the best creatures in the game right now are at least part, some even pure resilient. There probably are some variations among the lower arenas, but as you climb the resilients get stronger and stronger and Cunnings start underperforming. Some fierce creatures are pretty good at countering them but the best ones are all part Resilient themselves.

Balancing hybrids is almost always going to be more complicated and nuanced but if you’ve played the non-hybrid skill tournaments since 2.0 a similar trend emerges there, so that makes it easier to spot the issues since it’s pretty easy to tell what should be countering what, and therefore what is doing it’s job and what isn’t. I’ll admit I haven’t been playing as much as I used to, but a few general problems stuck out to me, and a lot of other people have brought them up too, so I’d like to compile them.

Firstly, here’s a couple of tier lists of the creatures we’re talking about to jog your memory, courtesy of @Temerity. I think you’ll find most of the placements are uncontroversial.



On to the list:

1] Relative win quality:
The way the class system works is that each class is supposed to beat one while losing to another. Due to just bad design a lot of Resilients beat Fierce creatures and a few Fierce creatures beat Cunnings, but let’s brush them aside for a second and look at the examples where the class system succeeds. You’ll generally find that while the classes beat what they should, Resilients dominate Cunnings sometimes to the point of sweeping them, while a lot of fierce creatures barely survive resilient matchups, and Cunnings do decent but not as well as Resilients do.
This is something we also see a lot of among hybrids.

This means Resilients can beat Cunnings even if they’ve taken damage, and can put up a fight even after coming out of a previous matchup, more so than Cunnings and Fierce creatures can do.

2] Resilients have a monopoly over swap-utility:
This is partly a byproduct of the previous issue, because Resilients can swap in, take a hit and still win while Fierce and Cunning creatures usually get punished hard for attempting such blasphemy. This makes Resilients more reliable as counters to what they’re supposed to counter

But this is also partly a result of some interesting decisions on Ludia’s part. They’ve consciously reduced the number of Cunning and Fierce swap-in abilities since the introduction of swap-in abilities, and now the void is filled almost solely by Resilients (the tier lists reflect this). Swap-in Wound is still a thing, but I’ll get to that later, and Swap-in Stunning Strike, arguably the best swap-in ability in the game, a resilient ability, has no parallel in the other classes.

This means not only do Resilients often dominate 1v1s but they can also come out of nowhere to steal a matchup to protect other creatures, while Cunnings and Fierce creatures generally can’t.

3] Resilient’s have the tools to deal with 2 classes, not 1:
One common pattern in the class system is creatures of a particular class having resistances and abilities to even out matchups against their same-class peers. You’ll see this as Distraction resistance and anti-dodge abilities in Cunnings and with stun, Vulnerability and Deceleration resistance in Resilients. Fierce creatures sometimes have Rend, swap-prevention and DoT resistance, but to a lesser degree.

So the classes appear to be somewhat equally equipped, but there’s more. Resilient creatures have shields and armour, which apart from wrecking Cunnings are actually the best counter in the game to attacks from other Resilient creatures. Fierce creatures don’t really have anything like that, meaning in 1v1s the best resilients in each class are often sometimes better equipped than fierce creatures when it comes to dealing with other Resilients. And since they also resist debuffs like stun, this also makes resilients generally the best at fending off attacks from the only good swappers in the meta—other resilients. Fierce creatures on the other hand usually have to do the little head wobble of shame before they get beaten or badly damaged for the next creature to set up on.

There are some Fierce exceptions of course that thrive in a meta of resilient swappers, like some No Escape users, as well as creatures with other On Escape abilities. Paradoxically the best On Escape abilities are often on Resilients, making them once again the best counter to themselves, generally speaking (see both Boas, which place high in the tier lists).

4] A lot of Fierce creatures are just badly designed:
These are the ones that get destroyed by Resilients, and include the bleeders, which ironically should thrive in a meta of Resilients but they usually just don’t have the resistances, the abilities and the damage output to stand a chance. Some like Spinosaurus make good trappers, but a good part of their strength comes from trapping the opponent while allowing the user to—you guessed it—swap to a resilient swapper because they’re the best at what they do, as opposed to being able to bring down Resilients under their own steam.

I think you’ll find some if not all of these points apply to hybrids too.

So, what do y’all think? Do y’all agree? Is there anything I missed? How do you think these issues should be handled?

Fixing the 1v1s can be done a number of ways, the easiest is probably to make sure fierce creatures always outspeed resilients and are immune to Decel, although that could cause certain issues and I know not everyone likes that idea. Maybe Fierce creatures should be given some new tools to fend off attacks from Resilients. What I know I want to see less of is Ludia slapping random Cleansing moves on Fierce creatures that only help them wreck Cunnings more instead of helping against Resilients, that’s a very obvious trend lately among hybrids and non-hybrids alike.

Bleeders and the counter-attacking pterosaurs and other fierce creatures that underperform need some serious working on.
Cunnings had their HP slashed in 2.0 especially among the non-hybrids, and I think a lot of them need buffs too. We could also do with more Cunnings that aren’t just none-dimensional Pure Cunnings, stuff like Utasino and even some non-hybrids could do with more flavour. Evasion needs some love, generally speaking.

And finally I think we need good Cunning and Fierce swappers and swap-punishers. Swappers should also have good counters that can set up on them before they escape so that every match isn’t just swapping back and forth, so you have to consider if swapping is necessarily the best option, or if it isn’t worth the risk setting up one of your opponent’s creatures.

Anyway I’m curious to hear what everyone thinks.

30 Likes

There’s a lot to think about for this topic. The first thing could be a new attack that only cleanses deceleration but is also armor piercing or defense shattering. Creatures like spinocon being speed immune would also make a big difference, since bleed (meant to beat resilient) doesn’t do much if you only survive one turn. Despite the meta actually being pretty good (baring swap in stun and cera imo), this would be a nice place to make improvements. I’ll probably be back when I think of more solutions to this clear resilient favored meta.

3 Likes

Or rework fierce atacks


And about swap in I think of deleting swap in stunning strike and give every creature which had it swap in stun

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The problem with that idea is that you can’t cleanse deceleration with those moves unless you’re already decelerated, and by that time it’s too late.

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Maybe making more fierces immune to decceleration and making them a little bit faster

The issue imo with the idea of just “make it faster” is that there’s sub classes within fierce. The rex class is the slowest in the game but hits really stupidly hard, but imo it should outspeed the resilient mega hp sauropod class (while being slower than the triceratops/stegosaurus class resilients). Perhaps there should be some better interplay between subclasses of fierce and resilient like that? Obviously a flat speed boost to thinks like thor is a risky proposition, but especially if speed is on a 200 instead of 100 point scale such changes could be considered.

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Thats true, but there are still ways that most fierce subgroups can be improved, even if not all of them are. Spinosaurs, fierce Pterosaurs, crocs, etc. would all benefit from speed decrease immunity and maybe minor speed buffs to outspeed most resilients. You may actually be surprised how many fierce dinos are already immune to deceleration. 23/49 pure fierce dinos are immune to it. The families that aren’t are most chompers, entelodonts, small Pterosaurs, Dracoceratops/Dracorex Gen 2, medium Pterosaurs, crocodiles, and Spinosaurs. The chompers are currently too slow to benefit from speed decrease immunity, and we really don’t need decel-immune nitro Thors (let them focus on high HP, raw damage, and vulnerability immunity). But all the other groups (besides maybe dracos) would benefit a lot from speed decrease immunity and/or minor speed buffs.

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Speed isn’t even on a 100 point scale, the fastest natural speed is only 31 points higher than the slowest. Not a lot of room for variety there. And it allows some slow dinos to boost to quite high speeds.

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Here is what I’m also seeing with Resilient beating fierce. A lot of Resilient have enough damage and multipliers in their Moveset to kill a fierce creature. So maybe if that was also changed, it could help out the meta a bit.

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One alternative to just making all fierce faster than resilients and immune to Deceleration is to give the ones that aren’t, like the chompers turn 1 moves that cleanse deceleration while buffing speed for the big hit. That way the resilients and fierce creatures could have more freedom of speed stats without affecting matchups too much.

The obvious problem is nitro Thors out speeding Cunnings, but increasing the speed gap between the fastest and slowest dinos could fix that while making things more interesting.

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I actually really like that idea. Maybe you could even give them Mutual Fury, or something like it (like Mutual Fury strike) for turn 1 to set up a powerful turn 2. Obviously you don’t want them to abuse that to beat cunnings, but giving this move only to the relatively slow chompers should help. With proper speed scaling, even a 10% speed increase could work really well. And they can increase the scale of the speed stat, which should probably be done anyway.

5 Likes

One of the things I’ve noticed is that the Stun mechanic (whether on swap-in or on direct use) has a far lower success rate than other abilities even when there is no reduction or immunity.

DOTs will cause bleeding 100% of the time. Distraction will reduce damage 100% of the time. However, if I swap in my Phorusaura the chance to stun is only (66%), but it seems to fail far more often than that. The same goes for Thor’s Instant Charge (listed as 75% chance, but seems like about a 50/50 chance). In fact, it almost seems like the chance to stun is level dependent. If you try to stun a L30 dino with a L25 dino, it seems like the chance to stun is much lower than if a L25 is trying to stun an L25.

My point in all this is that when you couple this reduced chance with the large amount of stun resistance in resilient dinos, this puts Fierce and Cunning creatures at a bigger disadvantage right off the bat.

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Stun is such a weird ability. It’s found almost exclusively on resilient dinos and their hybrids (like how Thor and Phorusaura get stuns from their resilient ancestry), but stun immunity is all over the place. If anything, mostly resilients and cunnings resist it, which is kind of backwards if stun is a resilient ability. But it’s so strong against faster opponents that cunnungs would get destroyed even more if they weren’t immune.

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Agree with this thread super hard, however speed being on a 264 or even 396 scale instead of 132 would be a huge first step. That way even a 10-30% speed buff wouldn’t let a thor outspeed a cunning.

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How about resilient moves only remove speed increase and decrease speed by 25%. It cannot cleanse distraction.

even a 25% decrease in speed is enough for resils to outspeed fierce at their current ranges. heck 25% brings all cunnings under 100.

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Only decreasing speed by 25% doesn’t do much. A Velociraptor would have 99 speed after, so still slower than everything in the game. It might as well stay at 50%.

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Would 10% work? I can think of one creature that’ll stay over 100, and that’s erlidominus. If 10%, superiority moves will gain their importance again. And many creatures don’t have superiority moves.

I treat stun as the resilient equivalent of dodge and crit chance as the fierce equivalent :joy:. It’s a % chance in your favor for something really good. I think swap in stunning strike and swap in stun should be 75% following nerfs/rebalancing to something else to better mirror swap in dodge.

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changing speed decrease on its own is not going to fix resilient moves since they need to allow resils to be faster than cunnings to beat them, but not beat fierce. another solution is needed to balance the issue.

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