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My Take and Proposal for Spikes Passive from 2.1 Images

So, I think I did a topic on this a long time ago, but the test pictures in the 2.1 release notes show that Spikes were at least an idea. Was it scrapped? Is it in the works? It would make a good replacement to some redundant counter attacks like medium and minor counters (which I believe are intended to simulate a similar effect anyway right?). They would fit after the opponent’s attack, but before your counter attack in terms of effect ordering. They would also deal Precise damage since you know… you can’t “Dodge” being stabbed by a spike you threw yourself into. It also would have a 50% chance to occur since that’s what they seem to be testing it with and it makes sense; the enemy wouldn’t always try running into the spikes! However, Whatever the case, I’d actually like to see it in game, but how it would be implemented could be tricky. I have a few proposals:

Spike Types:

  • Spikes
  • Minor Spikes
  • Greater Spikes

These variations could also have some prefixes attached to them like counter-attacks, but with a more limited selection such as:

  • Decelerating Spikes: Also Slows attacker 33% for 1 turn and removes Speed Increases.

  • Debilitating Spikes: Also reduces attacker’s Attack 50% for their next attack.

  • Wounding Spikes: Also DoT 15% of attackers max HP for 1 turn. (In addition to precise damage)

  • Armor Piercing Spikes: Also bypasses Armor.

Spikes Effects:

A. This is just a counter that isn’t guaranteed, deals less damage (with the acception of Greater Spikes) but triggers even if the defender doesn’t survive.It also can’t be Stunned since the “reflect” prefix means it’s not the defending dino actively attacking. Note the specification of “base Attack” also. This means Attack increases wont boost the damage but Distraction wont reduce it either. Probably the inferior but balanced version imo since it has the most resemblance to a normal counter.

  • Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 0.5x base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

  • Minor Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 0.25x base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

  • Greater Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 1x base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

B. This version uses the attacker’s base damage stat instead of yours meaning the returns can potentially be greater; especially with Greater Spikes. Like batch A it won’t be reduced if the attacker has Distraction but it won’t increase if they’ve boosted it (But having it scale of with their Ferocity would actually make sense. It would just be hard to specify in writing).

  • Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 0.5x attacker’s base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

  • Minor Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 0.25x attacker’s base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

  • Greater Spikes: 50% chance to reflect 1x attacker’s base Attack as precise damage after receiving damage from a physical attack.

I’m curious on everyone’s take or other suggestions! Different effects and varients? Lethal or non lethal?

EDIT: Vulnerability would increase the damage dealt by Spikes!

9 Likes

I think option B is interesting (though I wouldn’t include the RNG). Option A seems to similar to standard counters to me. The only difference is the fact that damage isn’t guaranteed, but something tells me the community wouldn’t be psyched about more RNG being added. I really like the idea of using your opponents damage against them. It may be tricky to balance, but if given to Cunning creatures, it could help them counter Fierce more easily. It would be cool if option Bs damage was also tied to how strong of a move your opponent used. That way if you tank a rampage, you deal back a TON of damage. And there would be counterplay options in choosing to attack with strikes instead.

2 Likes

I would only see an issue disabling RNG if a dino had both counter and spikes as guaranteed damage. Diorajasaur is a pretty good candidate. It might require a bunch more stat balancing, but maybe then it could work! Not a bad idea there! I’m less sure about the ties to move strength though. Bonus damage as punishment is one thing but the idea of taking 50%+ (probably more in Greater Spike’s case) of my HP before the opponent even moves doesn’t sound appealing to me, even if that only had a 50% chance of happening. Even the 1x counters don’t have that kind of retaliation power.

2 Likes

All I know is that people aren’t happy about the RNG we already have (or at least a few people are very vocal about it). It’s an interesting idea though, it just has the chance to be VERY strong. You would also need to be careful which dinos had it if it scaled with your opponents damage. It’s more effective the more damage your opponent does, so it’s most effective against Fierce. So if it was given to a resilient, should that resilient have the ability to counter it’s own counters? Just something to think about.

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I don’t think the RNG is necessary. In the same image as the Spikes passive we also see that Templatosaurus has a generic counter-attack, but the description for it involves RNG, which might just be an error of some sort, or that might just be filler text or something. If you look at the actual moves Templatosaurus has, most of the descriptions don’t make sense.

So I think making it a version of counter-attack which triggers even as the user is KO’d, based on the magnitude of the attacker’s damage would be the way to go.

2 Likes

Not all Fierce creatures deal high base damage though. Look at the Spinosaurs and Bary line. It’s obviously something to consider for chompers like Tryko and Tenotorex though. For something like Nodopatotitan with minor counter as of now, giving it minor spikes would increase that damage against a chomper, but not by a meaningful amount imo. Maybe just get rid of Greater Spikes and then make the other two guaranteed and not RNG?

2 Likes

The test counter attack is just saying it deals 30% damage back with “30% of attack back”, where as spikes says “50% chance”. Doesn’t mean they couldn’t make Spikes guaranteed though! Assuming it’s not a scrapped idea.

I think it would be fine if certain resilient creatures got it. That would nudge players into using bleeders instead of throwing attack boosts at everything. Making greater spikes guaranteed would probably be too much damage though, unless it’s on some really low-HP cunning creature.

I also think the Vulnerability debuff’s buff to incoming damage shouldn’t be counted while calculating the amount of damage the attacker will receive from spikes.

2 Likes

Yeah, maybe they could give it to Ankylosaurs? They could use some help against chompers. Chompers are supposed to counter ankylosaurs, but currently they don’t stand a chance. Or maybe Stegosaurs, since they have, you know, spikes.

2 Likes

Ankylosaurs and Stegosaurs would be the primary candidates based on what we have now. Some of the hybrids would probably end up getting them too like the Amarg line of hybrids, Dio, Tryko and Tuoramoloch. I see Dio having both a counter and spikes with some stat tweaks, while something like Tryko and Tuoramoloch would only get spikes.

2 Likes

I would be careful on Dio, that’s a LOT of damage. But other then that, those all sound good to me.

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I’d just be nervous about adding this too soon. Resilients are already at the top of the meta. They don’t need to suddenly get an option against their counters when none of the other classes really have one.

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If Resilient attacks didn’t remove Dodge and Cloak it would be a very different story.

Maybe, but that doesn’t affect their fierce matchup. As the counters to cunning, it should be their job to remove dodge and cloak if anything is going to. But it would give cunnings an option against resilients, at least for some of them. Personally wouldn’t change that though, maybe just make it less common. But that’s a conversation that can go on forever, and has before :joy:

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Should Distraction be factored in when calculating incoming damage? Let’s say you have a spiky creature with Instant Distraction. The opponent will attack, but deal 0 damage, therefore taking none from spikes even though direct contact has been made.
What about a scenario where a Thor uses Instant Charge against a faster Diorajasaur that used Instant Invincibility Taunt? The damage dealt is zero, but it’s the same dilemma.

Edit: I see you’ve mentioned Distraction already. The shield point still stands though.

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Idk how programming it would work (if it would even work at all tbh) but maybe it would just analyze if the attacker hit (whether it did 0 damage or 6K damage), the actual base attack stat of the attacker, multiply it by the spike modifier (0.25x or 0.5x) and then deal the damage. If Dio is stunned by Thor’s IC in your case, the precise spike damage would go through (it just cares if the attacker hit at all, not the state of the defender) but it wouldn’t be able to counter as usual. If a different scenario occured where the attacker had shields/or invincibility and armor, the spike damage would then be reduced by the appropriate amount like a normal attack.

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