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Now hear me out again

Another way of going about this isn’t so much buffing Cunning creatures but bringing their opposition in-line to them. The trifecta of Cleanse and Debuff attacks between the three isn’t exactly equal.

Cunning Strike: Cleanses bleed, while debuffing damage output
Fierce Strike: Cleanses vulnerable, while destroying shields and ignoring armour
Resilient Strike: Cleanses distraction, while crippling speed and removing dodge/cloak

The problem here is that Resilient moves remove everything that Cunnings need to survive in one go, and because of how vital speed is coupled with the generally-low health pool of Cunnings, it’s mostly a given that its Poukaidei is cooked. Compare Fierce moves to Resilient creatures: Fierce attacks can remove shields and armour which are staples of many Resilients, but health pools of Resilients are high enough that it tends to require at least two such attacks to fell them, and as Resilients frequently slow their opposition down, those two attacks don’t often hit in in succession like they do on Cunnings. A Cunning creature hit by a Resilient attack loses any advantage it had by Distraction, taking full damage on an already-low hitpoint pool, and then becomes a sitting Kelenken for whatever the next attack is - usually a much more powerful one.

There are 55 creatures with Resilient Strike (to say nothing of Resilient Impact & Rampage), along with an additional 6 that use Superiority Strike which does essentially the same thing. That’s a huge number of creatures out there with the potential to reduce the various Cunning creatures to free hits.

Unless that Cunning has an instant move or an immunity to speed reductions (because let’s face it, anything less than 100% speed reduction resistance on a creature that doesn’t also reduce its opponent speed is functionally useless).

Now, I’m not saying Resilient Strike needs to go; I’m saying it just does too much. To put it in line with with the other two main attacks, it should remove an advantage to the same degree - but removing both the reduction in damage (whether Distraction-like or Evasion-like) AND the speed, it’s all but guaranteeing a dead Cunning. That kind of guarantee is just a bit too much.

Either the Distraction cleanse should be removed, or the Speed reduction should be removed, and since the reduction in speed is much more powerful to keep the rock-paper-scissors thing going for them and we don’t want to nerf Resilients against Fierce (especially the fast ones), I vote the Distraction cleanse ought to go. Superiority attacks can remain as the Distraction-clearing specialty attack on far fewer creatures, allowing the Cunnings to reclaim a little more market share, though not become overpowered.

Thoughts?

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I generally agree, though I think your assessment of each classes move is a bit reductive. Let’s look at what all these moves actually do:

Cunning: Cleanse damage over time. Reduce damage 50% for one turn. Reduce critical chance 100% for one turn. Remove damage increase. Remove critical chance increase.

Resilient: Cleanse distraction. Reduce speed 50% for one turn. Remove speed increase. Remove dodge and cloak.

Fierce: Cleanse vulnerability. Remove shields. Remove taunt (raid only). Bypass armor.

I think it’s clear that it’s not that cunning attacks have fewer effects: they actually have the most out of all three classes. It’s more that Resilient attacks are far more useful than either other class. Fierce cleanses vulnerable and cunning cleanses damage over time: both are relatively niche abilities. Meanwhile, resilient cleanses distraction, the bread and butter of the cunning class. Distraction itself is a great debuff, but that’s essentially all cunning attacks do most of the time. Fierce has it even worse, since it’s basically just Defense shattering plus vulnerability cleansing sometimes.

I agree that resilient attacks need to do a bit less, and even more importantly, the other attacks need to do a bit more. For resilient, basically make them precise, and combine them with superiority attacks to reduce redundancy. They should cleanse distraction and reduce speed, but I don’t think they should remove dodge altogether. Their attack stats are generally so low that they need to cleanse distraction to stay viable. Maybe if cunnings gained a new minor debuff, they could cleanse that instead. For cunning, they could add a 10% one turn speed increase to spice things up, and maybe help them beat high-speed fierce dinos. Fierce attacks need something too: maybe a small 1-2 turn crit chance increase (which cunning attacks would naturally already counter), or the ability to temporarily remove or reduce armor rather than simply bypassing it (just like how cunnings can temporarily reduce crit chance).

More than that though, the stats just need to be balanced. Some resilients can be incredibly strong, but some are also incredibly weak. Rather than blame an entire class, they should focus on individual strong or weak dinos and why they in particular could benefit from rebalancing. I mean, people have been saying “resilients are too strong” ever since 2.0, and then they wonder why Ankylosaurus Gen 2 got nerfed out of the blue. You need to be specific :joy:

I consider the reduction of damage, critical chance, and removal of damage increase to be be just “damage reduction” as the damage/crit buffs are also niche, about as much as bleeds or vulnerability and less common than shields. At the risk of jinxing myself, I thought that was a fairly balanced approach to the trifecta.

I think the problem with this is it still neuters distraction/speed to the point of uselessness, as you’ve stated it’s the Cunning bread & butter; while dodge is still relatively rare on meta-relevant creatures or even Legendary+ by comparison to Resilient.

This seems like the simplest and yet hardest solution, as evidenced by the multitude of posts in the Sarcorixis thread over that creature’s stats alone. :wink:

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They’re definitely niche, but nonetheless they are still separate effects. Distraction applied to a dino with ferocity has a net 0% effect on base damage. Distraction and damage increase removal applied to that same dino have a net -50% effect. That’s significant, even more so than classifying speed increase removal and speed reduction being separate effects. My point was that the niche nature of the abilities is more important anyway, so even if they numerically have more abilities, these abilities are hardly as useful as the ones afforded to resilients.

The thing is, this isn’t really a problem. Resilients beating cunnings is just them doing their job. Maybe the fierce dinos need to be improved so that resilients aren’t quite so easy to run unchallenged. Plus, there are very few cunning abilities: just distraction, dodge, and speed increase. It’s hard to give a move any anti-cunning effects without countering a significant portion of their game plan. That class desperately needs more variety.

Lol very true. But the fact of the matter is that any blanket solutions that aren’t well thought out are just going to create more problems. Like if resilients lost distraction cleansing, how would anything deal with distraction? One option would be neutral cleansing attacks, which seem to be most common in fierce dinos of all things. Or you can negate the debuff with a damage increase, which is again fierce. Or you can just use dinos immune to distraction, which are almost exclusively cunnings (or resilients that lack the ability to cleanse distraction). So ironically the worst overall class to counter distraction with would be the resilients (granted their deceleration would still be useful). Every debuff needs a counter somewhere in the game, especially one as common as distraction. Do some resilient dinos have too much damage output? Absolutely. Does this mean that every resilient attack should lose the ability to cleanse distraction? No, it shouldn’t. It needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. Along with making resilient attacks precise, some resilients still need to remove dodge. So they could make a class of resilient attacks that decelerate and remove dodge but don’t cleanse distraction. These moves could be given to some of the resilients with higher damage output to balance them out (e.g. rhinos like Mammolania and Mammotherium, Elasmotherium, Brontolasmus, other dinos like Trykosaurus if you gave it a bit more attack and/or hp, etc.) Having more move variety allows for more nuanced balancing.

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Superiority strike on select dinos was my initial thought.

This was what I was aiming for for the bulk of the current Resilient moves :slight_smile:

I just think that since distraction is by far more common than dodge, distraction cleansing should likewise be far more common than dodge removal on resilient attacks. So the superiority type resilient attacks would make more sense as the main resilient attacks, with the other version being more niche (given to resilients with high damage output to allow them to get distracted)

Distraction is more common than dodge, but my reasoning is that as a staple/signature move it ought to be - much like slowing, for example, in Resilients and Armor-piercing in Fierce.

There isn’t really a counter to those by their intended “prey” outside of resistances and the odd move. For example, a Resilient slowing a Cunning works incredibly well unless they can cleanse the slow (few can) or they are immune to the slow (few are). Cunnings reduce damage to Fierce (talking Distraction specifically, not Cunning Strike which does multiple cleanses/debuffs) and works really well unless they re-buff themselves (few can) or are resistant to Distraction (a good number are but not the majority). And if anything, Fierce goes the other way in that outside of large hitpools and being faster than them Resilients have no response at all to Fierce attacks that go through their armour and shields. So why should so many Resilient creatures be able to cleanse the distraction and kill the speed of their foil class? Cunnings only reduce the Fierce power, and can’t negate it entirely with very few exceptions. And the slowing of a Resilient still works to full effect and grants the same advantage on a Fierce unless the Fierce is resistant to movement reduction or cleanses, which while still present remain few. Unless Cunnings start having Instant moves, or more begin to have immunity, Resilient remains the most powerful move of the trifecta for its intended use.

Anyway, getting tired, mind muddied. Will revisit when I’m more sensible. :slight_smile:

Thats an interesting way of looking at it, I just think you’re comparing apples to oranges, to some extent. The equivalent of resilients cleansing distraction would be fierce cleansing deceleration. And while this could be more common, it’s not something you want every fierce to have (e.g. Thor). Most fierce that could use deceleration cleansing are already immune to it (though more could be, like the crocs and spinos). Now most fierce aren’t built around applying debuffs, so cleansing debuffs isn’t how you counter them. The only fierce debuff is bleed, which is not only cleansed by cunning attacks, but is relatively rare.

I worry that having most resilient attacks remove dodge but not cleanse distraction will be terrible for diversity. Dodge gets shut down enough as it is. So if every resilient attack beats dodge but not distraction, distraction clearly becomes the better ability. Cunnings would become even more centered around using distraction, when it would be much healthier for the game if they gained new abilities to focus on. Just speaking from what I’ve seen, far more people seem to take issue with how much resilient attacks counter dodge than with how much they counter distraction. If some resilients have too much attack and can cleanse distraction, give THEM the moves that don’t cleanse distraction. But does something like Stegosaurus really need to be fully distractable? Cause that’s what you get when you remove distraction cleansing from resilient attacks.

Here’s the moves I would use:

These would replace all of their current resilient and superiority equivalents in the game. So most resilients would have these versions of the moves. Like I said, it focuses on dealing with the most common cunning survival option: distraction. If you think about it, reducing your opponents damage 50% with distraction is similar to reducing it 50% with a shield, and all “fierce” attacks remove shields. If anything, distraction may be even more common than shields. These moves do bypass dodge, but it doesn’t remove it (so something like cloak still happens, and multi-turn dodge moves can still defend against the rest of a resilients kit).

These would be the new kind of resilient attacks that remove dodge and cloak, but don’t cleanse distraction. Look, the icons don’t even reference distraction cleansing! These moves would be quite uncommon, and would be distributed carefully to specific dinos or classes of dinos. These could be given to some high attack resilients like Trykosaurus or the Rhinos in place of their non-basic resilient attacks (e.g Resilient Impact → Raking Decelerating Impact), in order to allow their damage output to be reduced. I would also use these in place of the Stegosaurs group decelerating attacks to reference their thagomizers’ raking ability through dodge removal. These moves do slow for an extra turn to increase their utility in that way (since not every cunning uses dodge, and they would be replacing two-turn slows on the Stegosaurs anyway), but they also have longer cooldowns than resilient attacks currently have. Why create these moves at all though: why not just use normal decelerating or group decelerating attacks? Well, something needs to remove dodge, and it should be resilients - just not ALL resilients. Otherwise, the only dodge removal option is nullify, which happens to mostly be on other cunning dinos. So I combined the need for a resilient attack designed specifically for dodge removal with the need for a resilient attack that doesn’t cleanse distraction as a way to kill two birds with one stone.

What would you think of these?

But why remove cloak

Because cloak is essentially dodge, and every other move that bypasses or removes dodge also bypasses or removes cloak. It’s convention; every aspect of the game effectively treats cloak and dodge the same. Plus, the VAST majority of resilient attacks would no longer remove dodge or cloak.

Okay and also, cloak is affected by presice?

Cloak is already affected by precise. But unlike dodge/cloak removal, precise doesn’t get rid of the cloak. So unless you manage to kill the Indom or Erlidominus, the cloaked attack is still going to go off.

Okay

(1010)

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Sorry, weekend was absolutely loaded with emergencies.

Of course we don’t want many Fierces to cleans slow, but then if that’s the equivalent to Resilients cleansing distraction, why would be want that to be as widespread as it is?

Fair point. I definitely don’t want to shut down any more of the Cunnings by these suggestions. The idea is to make them more viable, not less.

I still wouldn’t mind the application of the passive evasion damage reduction from the previous thread. I’m honestly just looking at ideas to bring the Cunnings back into a fair matchup.

Agreed! Also an equitable solution. The main point of course being that there simply far too many Resilient Strike/Impact/Rampage moves out there.

Example of Resilient that works: Stegodeus is relatively balanced in that it doesn’t heal, and is the definitive Resilient in that it’s food for Fierce. Two resilient attacks, but neither at a phenomenal power, along with shields and slow means it is all but hopeless for a pure cunning to beat it, but it is devoured by nearly any Fierce of equal level.

But now the mass of Resilient Strikes out there means that those who don’t specialize; those who have much more power, or have other abilities, those who look like they’re built to kill Fierces also have them to the point that Resilient is on any creature that isn’t Fierce has it and it’s just that detrimental to the bulk of Cunnings, then maybe it is time, like you said, that they be given abilities that just weren’t resilient.

Stegosaurus, as your example, is the proto-Stegodeus. It can Resilient Strike, and it can Thagomize. It’s built solely to take out cunnings. These kinds of creatures aren’t the problem that comes up.

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I think that your new Resilient moves are only the slightest tweak and that the high-damaging Reslients (the ones that can 1- or 2-shot Cunnings currently and severely damage Fierces if not outright kill them too) won’t notice too much of a difference, but your more “balanced” Resilients such as Stegodeus as mentioned above might if they (a) try to use a non-Resilient atatck such as a Thagomizer or Shields, and (b) are going to feel the Cloak/Revenge Cloak boost.

In a way I think this makes it slightly worse, just because (like making Dodge less preferable) a change like this would make the more a balanced, tank-like Resilients take a back seat to those that can put out more power on par with Fierces that only need the one shot through Dodge - presuming Dodge is used at all as time goes on. This might be balanced out by the fact that it doesn’t do a thing against Evasion.

Now, Raking I like as the alternative, and overall I think this split is the right way to go.

Taking them both together, the only suggestion I would make is that the new Resilient attack remove Precise except for a few, perhaps “Cunning”-minded Resilients. Straight-Resilients would get one or the other (removal of Dodge/Cloak/Evasion, or cleansing of Distraction) and distribute the moves in a way that makes sense. Stegos would get Raking, as that just seems on theme, etc. This way Resilients still take away a Cunning’s most important survival trait - speed - but the move used would be just as dependent on effectiveness beyond that as the Cunning creature the opponent chose to play.

I would be ok if they call could cleanse deceleration, EXCEPT the chompers. They have such high HP and attack already, all you have to do is boost their speed, and they become unstoppable. Maybe if they kept defense shattering but gained immunity to vulnerability (if they don’t already have it)? Or if all the other fierce dinos like Spinosaurs and Crocs (like Purussaurus) gained immunity to decel.

I agree with the rest of your suggestion. Here though, while I wouldn’t mind the main resilient attacks losing precise, should this also apply to those that use superior vulnerability or shielded decelerating strike? What about Devestation?

I think Stegodeus would get a nice buff out of this actually. It would keep resilient strike and rampage for distraction cleansing, but it’s group decelerating impact would be replaced by raking decelerating impact (which is exactly the same, plus dodge removal). It’ll be one of the few resilients with both strong “resilient” and “raking” options.

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I like the idea of crocs being immune to Decel if only for flavour reasons, but the idea of “all” of a certain group gaining immunities (of any kind) makes me bristle. Perhaps only certain non-crocs like we have now would be immune to decel; they have legs, after all, and I bet a four-to-six-spiked tail slap would do something to locomotion that tall and reliant on hefting their bulk. :stuck_out_tongue:

Stegodeus I could see being the posterchild for the Resilient design after this; since it currently removes dodge/evasion and cunning on both Resilient attacks, only the barest functionality would change with it and not to a detrimental amount and yet would not be “OP” as we’re all so happy to avoid :slight_smile: I could certainly go with that!

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Just throwing this idea into the fray. What if “resilient” attacks only decreased speed by 10%, rather than 50% (being more in line with minimum speed up strike) and then “decelerating” attacks keep the 50% speed reduction.