Ludia Forums

Now hear me out (Special Angry Edition - S.E.A.)

Sooooooo I’m on a bit of a kick to make suggestions I think might improve the game because I see a lot of potential in this game and I feel like Ludia gets a handful of things wrong but they are so close to getting those same things right. I’m hopeful that eventually some of the more community-agreed-upon suggestions get considered & implemented so that we all can enjoy the game that much more, invite our friends to play, and help the game thrive.

Which then brings me to one of the aspects of the game I thoroughly loathe: damaging swap-in attacks. I want these changed. I want them gone. Pretend you can hear me seething through the froth of my rabid breaths for emphasis.

But Pox, you say, changing SIAs when people have invested so much into them means those people lose out!

Personally, if you invest in what is obviously a cheap-shot mechanic that you’ve benefitted from all this time, you can lose out and I won’t shed a tear.

But I’m 99.999% sure Ludia doesn’t share this opinion, so don’t fret; like boosts, removing them isn’t going to be one of my suggestions. The door’s been opened, and it won’t be shut so easily.

Instead, I want to suggest something simple: that Swap-In-Attacks occur at the speed of the creature using them. There is no sense - whether from a creature standpoint or even a gameplay standpoint - for creatures to swap in and do a damaging, even lethal, attack at lightning speed, beating out the fastest creatures possible.

We already have double-swap-ins doing that; a Monostegotops tends to do its hit on a Dracoceratops, but that kind of planning requires that you even draw your creature of your 8 to begin with. Instead, opposition to changing SIAs has largely just been “plan that they’re going to swap in,” which firstly is nearly impossible to maintain due to the logistics of the game (as mentioned above we can’t choose our teams) and secondly would require an even narrower meta than we have now if we truly embraced it. Perhaps at the maximum levels where everyone has uniques and now even Apexes this becomes less of a problem, but up until then? In some cases it becomes a foregone conclusion if someone drew their SIAers and you did not draw your counters or your own SIAers. That kind of RNG is not fun.

I could propose weakening them all, and while the Rhino is probably the one example that might get unanimous support over, I don’t believe any creature should be able to take out 40% (nearly HALF!) of a creature’s HP when up until that point the creature’s player was outmaneuvering the opposition tactically.

To put it in other words, Swap-In-Attacks are to JWA what the blue shell is to Mario Kart. It requires no real skill to use, and can just screw a good play up until then.

I’ve also proposed before that Swap-In-Attacks should instead do no damage at all and be relegated to only providing buffs, debuffs, or other strategic options.

Instead, I’ll just make myself content - and hopefully others, enough to gain momentum for this idea - to just make the creatures do their moves at their proper speed. The switch can happen at the start of the round before moves, but then let the speed matter.

The swap-in creatures ALREADY have the advantage of swapping and taking a turn, something other creatures DO NOT GET. Any other creature essentially takes a free hit when swapping. It’s too much that they get super-priority over other creatures.

A side benefit is that to make this work Swap-In-Creatures would have to pull some HP or Damage boosts away and reallocate them for speed if they want to keep this priority advantage, meaning they may not wind up killing a still-surviving enemy allowing a proper retaliation. They might still kill a creature near-death, but I still think it’s far more fair to make people earn the speedy kill by, y’know, investing in the speed part.

In addition, I suggest the following:

  • No creature with a swap-in-attack should have swap-out immunity.
  • No creature with a swap-in attack should be able to cleanse their swap prevention.
  • No creature with a swap-in damaging attack can use the damage portion more than once per battle (i.e., taking a Sinoceratops for example: it swaps in, does a stunning hit, stuns and damages the target. Swaps out, and later in the match swaps back in, stunning but NOT damaging the target).
  • Swap-in moves (damaging or otherwise) should be increased to a 100% chance of special effect to compensate. (i.e., stunning strikes? Stun. Unless the target resists or is immune.)

Looking for feedback. Might also be looking to commiserate, because this tactic just feels cheap.

1 Like

As a mario kart player, I can tell you that this is 100% false, as is your claim. Swap-ins do require skill to use as you can build teams around them or can use them to regain advantage states

14 Likes

Hmmm…
I respectfully disagree.
I’ll keep my stuff.

6 Likes

And I want the chat to be fixed. And I want priority. Get in line.

5 Likes

As a Mario Kart player with absolutely no skill in Mario Kart, I’ll have to defer to your position on my analogy.

No really, I’m awful at it.

That said, I still maintain that the fact that swap-in-creatures can be boosted with no regard to their speed and still obliterate a creature before it has a chance to respond or even prepare is nonsensical. Letting them keep their swap-in attacks while forcing them to move at their given speed still strikes me as a solid middle ground.

i don’t want them gone. they create opportunities to regain an advantage or craftily take down a creature that is much stronger than your own. that said, there could be a way to mitigate swap in abilities. i’ve seen others suggest priority moves go before a swap in ability. a creature could still swap in, but the priority distraction, attack, or shield would apply first before SIAs

12 Likes

So what if you don’t need to boost their speed. Is it a bad thing you don’t boost ML or thylac’s damage or is it bad that you don’t really boost a raptor’s hp? No. Swappers like DC are here to stay and they do benefit from boosts, but you can be screwed by them too. If you draw 2 and the other 2 creatures are something like spyx and gorgotrebax and they throw out hadros, they screw you

If anything, adding more on escape moves would be a better idea. Last weeken, I was predicting swaps with boa all the time, and they suffered the consequences of on escape dust cloud

6 Likes

This is the kind of feedback I was hoping for. Adding on-escape moves at least provides some creatures with the ability to prepare for an incoming hit, or snag the final blow on a near-dead opponent before they save it.

Anything to stop the nonsense of thrown lightning bolts from the peanut gallery.

If this happens I want a big monosteg buff and DC fluff version

Even this would be a colossal step in the right direction! It allows for a tactically-called Instant Distraction or Evasion in lieu of the killing blow you maneuvered into place only to have your still-kicking creature cut down without a say in the matter.

I like the idea of an instant move going before a swap in move such as distraction,shields,evasion, would certainly up the level of skill from both players to deflect or cause damage from a swap in, there are a small number of dinos that benefit from on escape moves , whether that could be extended to others is a big question for debate.

3 Likes

I actually came here to make the same suggestion. I had the same thought that; fine, swap in damage isn’t going away, but why not be able to do more to counter it?

Unless Ludia decides to show both players the 4 creatures drawn, the only real way to know you’re about to get RAT’d is well, to get RAT’d. Be that as it may (a contentious mechanic but apparently one we have to accept) then fine, let me put up some shields or distract or dodge when I think a RAT may get swapped in. It’d be a great comprimise to limit it to just the instant variety, so that not every shielding/distracting/dodging move would take priority over the swap in damage.

This is a great suggestion by Qiew, @Ned and I think it should be put up for serious consideration.

3 Likes

Woolly rhino and dracoceratops are the reason why people hate swap-in damage, at least in my opinion. I don’t know of any other reason. Woolly rhino could have a bit less attack, but other than that it’s fine. Dracoceratops is fine in my opinion, its swap in is supposed to kill high hp creatures, but high hp creatures usually have armor and shield, like stegodeus and nodopatotitan.

It’s part of the game… You have to play and try to bait them out early. If you get hit on the third round, basically, you did something wrong earlier. If they escape, hopefully, you’re hitting the next one big time, and luckily, now you know the opponent has one and you know when it will come back to haunt you. If you have the answer, then it’s still dead. If not, well, you lost a game, and next one should be easier.

I don’t at all agree with this… I think when it comes to swap in damage moves, it’s only really problematic when the creature has high stats (i.e. Ceramagnus & woolly rhino) other than when the swap in moves aren’t paired with high damage they’re pretty balanced overall.

did that in the tournament. happened to use my own swap in (nasuto) when they swapped in dracorex. it escaped, but i took it out later because it was easy to predict after that.

I hate them with a passion, but I also like them because it does bring a different dimension to the game. And yes, when one escape, it does often become a fun mind game.

Wow you will love seeing Cera when it is unlocked soon!

That has by far the biggest swap in hit, and a priority speed move plus a rampage!

If it’s faster than your Dino it’ll hit you for 1500 on a swap in and a good chance of a stun, then another 1500 with group acceleration which is a priority damaging move, then 3000 on a rampage.

On the plus side, thank goodness Mortem will become useful as it looks to be the best counter for the new bane of the arena.

Well considering it does in two hits from it not sooo much