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Rework Tryko! And other stuff too

Anyway here’s an idea for the resilient spikes, but first to introduce a new concept:

Llama (placeholder): a creature’s Llama, is its speed minus 100.

I think the concept of llama can be put to good use in future rework ideas to make staying slow beneficial, in some cases. For now it’ll be what spike damage is based on.

Spikes: On receiving damage, deal damage to the opponent equal to the square of their llama, bypassing distraction and evasion.

Basically, this means if your opponent is at 109 speed, then they’ll take 81 damage, so not much at all. However, if your opponent is at 130 speed, they’ll take 900 damage. If they’re at 145 speed, that’s 2025 damage.

So even a few points in speed makes a big difference in damage.

And yes, they take damage even if you get KO’d.

Now, you might ask, what about fierce creatures with high base llama? Well, I’m not sure. Maybe they could be Immune to spikes, or resistant to it. They’re typically crocs, so you could say they have reinforced jaws and armour or something to justify it.

Or maybe you could just accept that fast fierce creatures are going to be worse than slow ones against spiky creatures. That would be less complicated.

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It happened once or twice when I ran smilonemys

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I like that Idea, If the creature doesn’t have very high stats It seems pretty balanced, so there’s no reason It couldn’t work, I’m even thinking It would be a great ability for some stegos and ankys, Doedicurus or even some other spiky creature i can’t remember right now. I can’t really think of a cunning with spikes honestly. But If it’s a hybrid that ends up being cunning It would make sense to be based on damage instead.
The creature in the game that fits this concept the most would be tuoramoloch imo

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Coincidentally, Tuoramoloch is also the creature that would be most Vulnerable to it. If it uses Group Acceleration against something spiky, that’s 7921 damage with no speed boosts. If it has its speed buffed twice, that’s 23,104 damage :flushed:
No amount of healing will bring you back from that :rofl:

@Mudkipz what do you think?

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Wow that’s kind of insane :joy: I like the idea of the move. I would balance it on a similar scale to rend. Maybe it could be based on the base speed instead so the damage doesn’t get ridiculous?

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The reason I used square llama is so that you get a massive difference between the amount of damage a slow creature would take and the amount a fast one would. A base speed T.Rex would only take 4 damage, compared to a base speed Velociraptor which would take 1024 (which is by no means ridiculously high).

This allows spikes to counter fast creatures regardless of their class, which is something that would come in handy against creatures that try to bypass the weaknesses of their class, like 145 speed Thors.

The amount of damage Tuoramoloch takes is by no means representative of the amount any other creature takes, since nothing else in the game can match that speed.

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Also, it’s a passive ability

Those are all good points. That’s why I was saying it should be based on base speed though, which would include boosted speed. It should probably be a little more consistent though. Taking rend as an example, even if a dino has 50% resistance to rend and very little health, it’s never quite as useless as only doing 4 damage. It should probably be doing at least 2-400ish damage to the slowest dinos.

It’s meant to be a resilient trait though, only useful against Cunnings or anything with highly-boosted speed. It also deals damage when it gets taken out, so we can’t just say, multiply the opponent’s speed by 10, since it would be dealing around 2000 damage to fierce creatures, leaving practically no room for the creature with spikes to deal damage with actual moves.

If it could deal around 400 to slow creatures and around 1000 to fast ones, that could work, but you need to come up with a formula that gives you those values based on speed. I don’t want it to be too complicated.

I don’t think this is a good example. 50% resistance would be more like having an opponent with around 120 speed (a middle value), giving 400 damage with spikes.
A more valid comparison would be an opponent with 99% rend resistance, since spikes only deals 4 damage to an opponent with llama of 2, which is exponentially smaller than that of an opponent with a llama of 32.

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Thats the point though, no ability does that little damage unless it’s been completely negated by instant distraction, Invincibility, etc. I think something like 400 to slow, 1000 to fast could work, you’d just have to figure out the math to do that.

I think I actually figured out a decent formula. It would be Damage = 300 + (25 x (Opponent speed - 100)). With this formula, a dino with 105 speed would take 425 damage, 120 speed would take 800, 130 would take 1050, and 140 would take 1300. You can adjust the multiplier (the 25x) to have it do more or less damage, but it is a passive like a counter, so I think less damage is fine. The disadvantage is that it’s not as easy to visualize as rend, but rend is inherently easier to do that with because it is determined directly by the stat it affects, your opponents max health.

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That formula would work, but I think dealing 4 damage to something like T.Rex is fine. There’s no real reason to have it deal more other than personal preference, especially when the upside is you get to deal 2k damage every time a 145 speed Thor hits you.
But we’d have to actually come up with a creature to have the passive to tell if it would be balanced or not.

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Yeah its tough. 4 damage does feel pretty useless, but I suppose as a counter its not that bad. I still think the power curve needs to be flattened out a bit. Whatever it ends up on would probably be balanced assuming that it’s spikes would be doing a good deal of damage, so if it doesn’t have that it’ll be especially underpowered in some matchups.

Plus, slow dinos often have very high attack and hp to compensate for their low speed, so this ability only adds to their strength. Speedy glass cannons are the ones that need help right now. I’m happy to work on this ability in a vacuum, but I’m not sure if it would be good for the game in it’s current state. I do like it as a deterrent to nitro Thors though. But assuming it was on a resilient, I’m not sure it would make much of a difference in that matchup, at least not without doing so much damage that it practically one-shots every speedster in the game.

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I think that would be fine if it had low enough HP. Something like:

Psittacosaurus
Epic

HP-3400
Attack-1400
Speed-130
Critical chance-10%

-Superior Vulnerability
-Defensive Stance
-Sidestep

-Spikes
-Swap-in Distraction

-Immunity to Stuns

It would be Cunning Resilient, since we don’t have any non-hybrid that is, yet.

I just checked, and this thing would beat Indoraptor, and would also draw with any Thors with 145 speed.

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Lol I was just talking about how we could get a non-hybrid resilient-cunning in another thread :joy: It looks good! You just don’t want a passive ability to be too strong, no matter how weak the rest of it is.

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And here’s an idea for fierce creatures:

Devouring Rampage: Cleanse Deceleration. Destroy Shields, deal 2x damage bypassing armour. Heal 1x. Delay:1, Cooldown:2.

This would replace Fierce Rampage on some fierce creatures.

Any cunning creature should have taken it out by then, so the healing would be inconsequential. If they haven’t, they can just stack Distraction so that there’s no healing.

If you combine this with lowering the attack damage of problem resilient creatures, then that allows Fierce creatures better win quality, increasing the need for revenge-killers (cunning creatures) as well as cunning creatures to beat them 1v1 in the first place.

This doesn’t help the fact that fierce and cunning creatures typically have much less swap-utility than resilient creatures though. You can swap a resilient into a cunning and win, but swap a fierce into a resilient or a cunning into a fierce and things typically won’t end well. Resilients can also revenge-kill fierce creatures, to make things worse.

So you could make the fierce creatures naturally faster than resilients, allowing them to revenge-kill resilients. This would make devouring rampage more useful, since the chomper would go from faster than the resilient, to slower, to faster again after using it, and no resilient would be fast enough to revenge-kill it, meaning it would be able to deal significant damage to any other resilients.

So Cunnings would be master revenge-killers and fierce counters, Fierces would be decent revenge-killers and resilient counters, and resilients would be the best at swap-utility and cunning counters while terrible at revenge-killing.

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I definitely like the way you proposed revenge-killing and swap utility should work. Makes a ton of sense, since resilients are really the only class with decent swap utility right now with their high HP. Right now most fierce dinos that are faster than resilients either can’t revenge kill because they use bleed (Spinos) or have terrible turn 1s (Barys). This fierce revenge killer was the key niche that Tryo used to fill, and something needs to fill that niche again.

I also like the devouring rampage except that I would only have it do 1.5 damage at the most. It’s just that since it also heals, the difference in health after a single use would be huge. Especially with the high attack stats of many fierce, they could heal a good chunk of their HP. I know you said that the heal would be inconsequential against cunnings, but it really wouldn’t. Like if a fierce with 1500 attack goes up against a cunning with over 3000 HP, that heal could help them win the match. It looks like it doesn’t cleanse distraction at least, so that means that the heals could be countered by that. But it’s still very powerful against resilients, maybe even too powerful.

I meant that the cunning creature would either 2-hit KO the fierce creature, in which case it wouldn’t get to use the move in the first place, or use stacking distraction so that the amount healed would be zero. Some cunning creatures currently don’t fit into either category, but they need buffs anyway.

Against resilients, this is what the matchup would be like: let’s take the example of T.rex vs Elasmotherium. T. rex is faster, and uses Fierce Impact, while Elasmotherium decelerates rex with Resilient Impact. Elasmotherium then uses Taunting Rampage, leaving T.rex with only 125 HP left, but it uses Devouring Rampage to cleanse Deceleration, KO Elasmotherium and get its HP back up to 2025, which is easily within the range of the turn-1 damage of any cunning creature, well, apart from Eremotherium.

At least in this matchup, Devouring Rampage is far from OP. However, if the T-rex revenge-killed a resilient, leaving Devouring Rampage available against a Cunning creature, that would be a problem.
Do you think adding the cleansing Deceleration to Fierce Rampage and making all fierce creatures faster than resilients would be enough to make them relevant without any regeneration abilities?

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Those all make sense to me.

Cleansing deceleration and/or making fierce dinos faster than resilients would definitely help. The heal is useful too though, because otherwise the resilient will still be able to attack twice before the fierce can cleanse their deceleration and be faster again. So healing would help mitigate some of the lost damage. The total strength of the move just needs to be scaled to the individual dinos attack stat, and the delay and cooldowns would have to fit as well.

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I would love for giga, charca and acro to get this ability

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Heck, maybe even Rex