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Should cunning creatures be immune to deceleration?

I’ve not done a deep dive on this - someone else can quickly correct me if I’m wrong - but arent cunning creatures supposed to counter resilient creatures? And in jwa, speed is king. Let’s take ardentismaxima as an example- my level 28 that’s boosted completely in health and damage loses all the time to lower level, lower boosted but faster versions of itself.

It just feels like my dinos are useless; countered by both resilient and fierce:

Rinex
Dilo
Indo
Erl
Spino
Zorion

They dont really counter anything. Alternatively, that seems to leave resilient creatures with few counters.

If cunning creatures were decel immune, I could swap them into a tryko, or a max.

Just a thought.

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yeah, a bit wrong there. resilient is the counter to cunning. cunning is the counter to fierce. fierce to resilient. Tank beats speedster. Speedster beats chomper. Chomper beats tank.

in theory this rock-paper-scissors thing would work, but with things that are combos of resilient and fierce, they make ordinary cunning creatures not as good in this meta.

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I think you have it backwards my friend. Cunning is supposed to counter FIERCE which counters resilient. Fierce specializes in high damage and shield/armor breaking to beat resilient. Cunning specializes in distraction and dodging to reduce the damage output of fierce. Resilient specializes in deceleration to gain an advantage over the generally fast cunning creatures, and also remove their distraction and shields. But yeah, the counters of resilients SHOULD probably be immune to deceleration, and indeed many fierce creatures actually are (and those that arent have especially high health to compensate).

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Ah, thank you both.

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You’re welcome! There is a point to be made about how strong these multi-class hybrids are, like how Maxima and Tryko are partial fierce creatures that can cleanse distraction, or how Magna and Monolometerodon are partial cunning creatures that can’t be slowed down. They sometimes gain the strengths of both classes with none of the weaknesses.

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They should make resilient strikes not able to go through dodge

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Well, technically, both magna and mono are no longer 100% immune to distraction, they have 50% resistance. I would count that as a weakness of their chomper side.
As for Tryko and Maxima, well, imo Maxima shouldn’t have distraction immunity and Tryko shouldn’t have a distraction cleansing move.

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Maybe resilient moves could be just precise but not remove the dodge effect

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Yeah Maximas distraction resistance should get lowered to at least 50%. I’m ok with Tryko the way it is though. It only has one distraction cleansing move, and it can’t use it every turn. While the Magna/Monolometerodon distraction resistance is 50%, having that resistance is still better than the full weakness that most fierce creatures have. I think it would be interesting to see them with 75% decel resistance- then they can get outsped by some resilient creatures, but not all (among these being Maxima and Tryko).

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Magna and monolo need 100% decel resistance or they wouldn’t work. End game wise they are already pretty balanced. Both are countered by faster speedsters or very high HP tanks like well, Maxima. Gemini can kill magna too. That’s why they don’t need any nerfs, they have enough counters. And sure, having that distraction resistance is better than nothing but they are partly cunning creatures too. They function as a counter to some resilient-fierce creatures, like Thor and Tryko, sometimes Dio, but not all of them. We could remove their distraction resistance and It wouldn’t affect their matchups too much, but changing their decel resistance to anything other than 100% and they become pretty much irrelevant. Out of the meta. Having them being outsped by maxima and Tryko would be terrible, they are designed to counter something like Tryko, and can at least get 2 hits on Maxima. Them having few resistance weaknessess is irrelevant when they have enough counters, not to mention, their stats distribution is their “hidden weakness”. They don’t have the bulk of a chomper nor the speed of pure speedsters, this is something that balances them.

That’s not the case with Maxima and to a lesser extent Tryko. Maxima doesn’t really need that much distraction resistance to defeat speedsters since It has resilient strike, so i thought It was a good way to balance It without It losing it’s use on raids. But maybe having 50% is better than removing It completely. I’m not sure, balancing It without compromising raid use is complicated and for that we need to rework other creatures to be counters, not just change maxima. Something that @Qaw did really well.

For me the reason Tryko is considered unbalanced is precisely the resilient impact. It was perfectly balanced when It couldn’t cleanse distraction. I like the new slowing capabilities but cleansing distraction is what’s breaking It. Personally i hate that It lost HP, I’d take a Tryko with slowing impact instead of resilient impact but with 4500 HP back over the current one any day of the week.

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I think that maxima should loose all deceleration resistance
I think it would be still surprisingly balanced while remaining strong and would allow the ability for a lot of dinos to hit it twice before they die
That way the raids are not impacted
What do you all think ?

Those are all really good points. I do maintain that 75% deceleration resistance would be ok on Monolometerodon and Magna, because both would still outspeed Tryko and Maxima after being slowed. And it might give some of the faster tanks that are currently outclassed by Tryko and Maxima more of a purpose. But I see your point, and it’s not a big deal.

I’m actually kind of confused why any of the dimetrodon-style dinos (and most of their hybrids) have any distraction resistance. They’re fierce, so why are they resistant to something that’s meant to counter them? I get that they used to be immune, but after they ended full immunities, you would think they would at least be weak to distraction, right? They actually didn’t give either Dimetrodon any distraction resistance, but Secodontosaurus and Edaphosaurus have 50% resistance. If they removed this across the board, including their hybrids, then it could help balance a lot of things. This could be used to justify Maxima and Ardontosaurus losing their distraction resistance, as well as Tryo, Postimeterodon, etc. Magna and Monolometerodon could keep their 50% though, because as you said they’re partially cunning, and most distraction immune dinos are cunning (same goes for Monolorhino and Edaphocevia). I do agree that those two are very balanced right now, at least in the endgame. Even Maxima could keep 50%, if they wanted to. I would be ok with those Tryko changes too, trading resilient impact for a higher attack stat.

I see, there’s a case to be made about those other tanks countering them(i don’t know what tanks you are refering to though, If you could give me exemples… Dio is one “tank” that already beats them as long as there are no crits), but with Tryko’s double speed reduction that 75% speed resistance would mean Tryko would lose 2 counters. Besides, those other tanks already beat pure speedsters, i think it’s fine for them to lose against magna and monolo. Overall, i don’t really see a point in removing their 100% decel resistance, seems like an unnecessary nerf when they could have less distraction resistance instead and are currently well stablished as balanced creatures in the meta. Guess we’d just have to agree to disagree on that one.

Yeah i agree with you there, and about the previously immune ones, i have a theory for why they kept a parcial distraction resistance. Even when they were fully immune, they overall weren’t all that special. To compensate for the immunity, they have decent but not very good stats, average HP, damage a bit higher than most tanks but nothing special, faster than tanks and chompers but slower than every speedster and long legged crocs. Their thing was their immunity. You get It, they are average in almost every regard, so to compensate they get to keep an edge in the form of extra resistances. Even now most aren’t really relevant in the tournament for their rarity. I think secodonto is an exception, and dimetrodon that doesn’t even have distraction resistance is actually useful in rare non hybrid tournaments. Now, edaphosaurus that has 50% is almost irrelevant on those as it’s stats are not enough. They kept those resistances because they wouldn’t really be useful without them. I guess distraction resistance is not really necessary for them as they lose to faster speedsters anyway, but i guess since most don’t have any high stats they might need this advantage. Just like the current long legged crocs they function as fast but frailer tank busters, so all are immune to slow. Crocs rely on ferocious moves while those previously immune ones rely on more resistances. That’s just my guess though.

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I think we actually agree more on Monolometerodon and Magna than you think. Like I said previously, I think they’re both fine right now (at least in higher arenas, Monolometerodon being available so early is more debatable), so I agree that it would be an unnecessary nerf. That’s why initially said it would be “interesting” if they did that, not that it was required to balance them. The other tanks would be stuff like Testacornibus, Smilonemys, and Mammolania. But you’re right that they already have their place - Maxima and Tryko are just usually better at this.

I see what you mean with the dimetrodon-style partial resistances to distraction. But I think the long-legged cross being immune to deceleration is fundamentally different, since as fierce creatures they’re SUPPOSED to be good against deceleration. But the dimetrodon-style creatures (I’ll use my Paleobiology minor and call them “Pelycosaurs” now) are also fierce, so being resistant to distraction is contradictory to their classes role. But you are right that they are unremarkable without this, and it doesn’t break them as a class, at least at a basic level. But when their hybrids that don’t necessarily need these resistances inherent them, it can make them especially strong. See Maxima for an example of that in action. It all circles back to scaling back some of the resistances of creatures like Maxima that are a bit too strong.

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I see, that’s true. I agree with you on monolo too, but i can’t say much as i don’t know If it’s actually unbalanced on lower arenas for my current lack of experience in there.

Oh those tanks. I guess the problem with those creatures is that most of the creatures that they counter are currently irrelevant or situational, but neither class is really bad. If we had more good relevant bleeders and ferocious-fierce creatures the speedsters would be really relevant and so would make those tanks relevant as well. That’s one more reason for Tryko to lose any distraction cleansing ability and for Maxima to have less resistance to distraction, that would help those tanks being the more specialised in countering speedsters. So my solution for those tanks is to basically buff existing bleeders and add some end game ferocious-fierce creatures that are lacking in the meta. That variety would be a good balancing measure imo.

I agree with you there, also, pelycosaurs, noice.
Like you said while there is a case to be made for some non hybrid pelycosaur chompers to have a partial distraction resistance to compensate for their unremarkable stats, i don’t think all of their hybrids really need it.

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I think we’re on the same page. My girlfriend is in the lower arenas, so I’ve seen it through her. She started seeing Monolometerodon around Lockdown and was having trouble with him. It was definitely one of the first legendaries she started seeing. I tried to help her, but there wasn’t much she could do. The best counters seem to be faster cunning creatures (for her, Procerathomimus), and even those can only partially distract it. But those of course get heavily countered by resilients.

I also agree that this strength is due to an imbalance in the “rock-paper-scissors” system, specifically with a weakness in the endgame level fierce creatures. Just like you said, having some more viable ones of those and some bleeders would decrease the number of good matchups for resilients, and give cunning creatures more of a purpose, and maybe making other tanks relevant too, bringing everything into balance.

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@Wrothgar1 sorry for going a bit off topic, but I hope you agree that it was an interesting conversation :sweat_smile:

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Its great!! I love it.

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