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Shouldn't rajasaur be a fierce relisent

I also agree with adding resistances into the class determination system, because they can make so much of a difference so easily

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It also doesn’t often contradict either the in-game classes or the ones I came up with. The only exceptions are Eremotherium being immune to deceleration, a bunch of resilients being immune to or resisting swap prevention, and Dilophoboa being immune to taunt. But if these are treated as minor traits, it only makes a difference for Mammolania and Titanoboa Gen 2, where their immunity to swap prevention makes them Fierce-Resilients.

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Honestly, for some of the ones that should be countered by swap prevention like the towers and Mammolania, it should be removed. However, Titanoboa I’m kinda on the fence with, given a lot of matchups don’t really change if it has it or not, and it’s role is not affected by it (unlike the previously mentioned tanks, which benefit from this by allowing them to swap out of bleed and potential Rending attacks, which counter them).

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Honestly this test is a validation of NOT including resistances. Although I agree with the theory, they usually agree with the class the abilities designate (when resistances count as minor traits), and when they don’t they tend to just make it more confusing (like with Mammolania and Titanoboa G2). You can argue that the resistances themselves should change, but it does create some confusing situations. It may be easier to just make an exception for Tany and leave the rest of the resistances out of it for now. At least until I can think of something better :sweat_smile:

I’m sorry, but since when is Boa2 a fierce?

It’s a long story. I don’t think it is or should be. But we were discussing ways to uniformly incorporate resistances into determining a dino’s class, and Titanoboa G2s swap prevention resistance combined with it’s on-escape ability granting a damage boost would have made it part fierce.

I think Boa is a res either way. Like many have said before me, one stat or move doesn’t make a creature a class. Boa has many resilient traits, those being the immunity to distraction, shields, deceleration, and precise.

It’s stats as well, it has the generic 1000 attack like most resilients, average speed and average health

But why tho? The ferocity on the shield I think is just a remnant of when it needed to have a way to punish Kapro and Draco (since they had SI Def Strike), and the swap res is pretty pointless for the most part, seeing as how that only affects Andrew, and even then Andrew 2HKO’s every creature in its rarity.

I also don’t understand why it’s type needs to change, it does ok damage at best to it’s fellow resils, and while it can dish out decent damage to a fierce, most still get away with enough HP they can’t get sniped (unless WRhino is viable which is another can of worms). Meanwhile, it beats every non hybrid cunning by usually an huge margin and has almost exclusively resilient moves and kit, so I don’t understand why it’s anything but.

Also also, and this is more about ferocity than Boa2, but why is ferocity inherently fierce? The ability to deal out more damage benefits every class, so assigning it to one class, even as minor trait, is a little ridiculous. Besides, we have the entire mammoth family, Antarco’s line, and even Rixis that go against this.

Ferocity is fierce because almost every dino that has it is. You can kind of make the argument that any ability doesn’t need to belong to any class. All dinos benefit from not taking damage, so why are shields resilient? Although I didn’t use stats, you can’t deny that the fierce stereotype is still high damage, as much as resilients prioritize high HP or cunnings prioritize high speed. Now it’s not a “major” fierce trait, so just having Ferocity doesn’t make you fierce, but it can contribute to a fierce classification. But if a dino had only damage increasing moves, what class would you call it? Probably fierce. So I think it works as a minor fierce trait. I even called Rixis fierce partly for this reason. Even the Mammoth line used to be fierce before 2.0. Plus, cunning attacks remove damage increases, so it fits into the type triangle this way. If you want to counter a damage boosting attack, you turn to a cunning move, and cunning is supposed to beat fierce.

This isn’t really about Titanoboa specifically. It’s more about designing a more objective system for classifying dinosaurs that makes sense. Right now it seems like Ludia just calls things whatever they want, but that doesn’t always make sense - why is Spionyx part cunning? So the goal is to take personal opinions out of it as much as possible, so that classes are automatically assigned based on their attributes. The Titanoboa thing was an experiment in incorporating resistances into this system, but since it gave a weird result (namely classifying Titanoboa G2 as fierce), it still needs some work. My next idea is to increase the threshold of minor abilities to determine a class from 2 to 3, while including certain resistances as minor traits.

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I agree mostly with what you said (although if a creature had only damage boosting abilities I’d call it wild card). However…

Nyx is part cunning given it’s DoT Res, it’s anti dodge moves, and the fact that it reliably beats resilient and fierce opponents while losing reliably to cunning opponents. It’s more of what it beats determining its role vs its kit

Dang that came out bad, English is hard lol

English is hard lol

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I agree that it should be based on what it beats, but that leads it it being fierce-resilient. As I said in resistances, a resistance tend to apply to the class that uses the ability OR the class that beats to class that uses the ability, so it can be cunning or fierce. Then there’s it’s deceleration immunity, which can be fierce or resilient but not cunning. Precise and dodge removal beat dodge, a cunning ability, so those are more resilient than anything else. As for what Spionyx is supposed to do, I’ll let it’s release notes speak for themselves…

Good against resilients and evasive… sounds like Fierce-Resilient to me.

There are always going to be exceptions, but that’s why I had to make the major/minor distinction in the first place. Otherwise it would be as simple as assigning every ability to a class and tallying which classes are represented on a creature. But it’s not that simple. For example, take speed increase. It’s an ability that every dino benefits from, and is found on plenty of non-cunning abilities like Dig In or Mutual Fury. So it could be wildcard. And yet it has to be cunning to some extent, because Ludia has specified in tips that Speed Increase is a cunning ability, and dinos with only speedup abilities (namely Deinorachierus) count as cunning. The same goes for healing - called out as a resilient ability, but found on plenty of non-resilients (like the Postosuchus line). That’s the whole idea of minor abilities: they DON’T determine a class, not unless they are the only abilities a creature has, or are found in significant quantities on a creature. The later reason was why Titanoboa G2 was classified as fierce in that experiment, because it had a few minor fierce traits. But if you don’t count resistances, or up the threshold for minor attacks determining a class from 2 to 3, then it can retain it’s damage increasing ability while remaining a pure resilient. That’s the goal with these minor abilities. At the same time, some abilities still need to count for more, since they’re the only representation for their class on certain dinos, like shields on Tupandactylus as it’s only resilient trait or DoT on Spinoconstrictor as it’s only fierce trait. But again, you can’t treat every ability like that. Most abilities have to fall into one class or another, but minor abilities allow them to remain as wildcard abilities until proven otherwise.

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That was in 1.7 tho, and with the addition of a few extra resistances and a now weaker matchups against cunnings, it just makes sense.

Also, in terms of the resistances, I’d say it still functions as Cunning Fierce, being a faster tank buster, in the same vein as Magna. The dodge removal is more of a cherry on top than an actual defining trait, similar to how a lot of cunnings have a precise move, and DR was made to give it a little extra coverage against its primary target, resilients

Yeah I guess that makes sense, although I definitely feel a little different. I honestly prefer 1.14’s balancing style over 2.0’s, it didn’t say an ability is limited to a certain class, and offered up some cool ideas (like Lania being bulky and hitting hard, or Tryko being more focused on stalling between damage)

I think I would sooner give it pure fierce than Cunning-Fierce. Although fierce-resilient works, because technically cunning should have an approximately even matchup with it. It has the same exact moves as it had back then, and the resistances have only been against fierce and resilient. Magna is a tank buster because it’s fierce, and Spionyx is the same way. The cunning doesn’t help that, and in fact technically should hurt it as a tankbuster. Even though some cunnings have precise or even full dodge removal, it’s now a far more common resilient ability, and dodge is definitely cunning. So if that’s resilient and everything else about it is fierce, where’s the cunning?

I agree. The thing is, the current system doesn’t stop you from being more creative and lenient with abilities, it only changes the label you slap on it afterwards.

The cunning there comes in when you look at matchups, it’s designed to bring down resilients, does ok against fierce, and gets hard countered by cunnings, seems pretty Cunning Fierce to me