Ludia Forums

Some Classes are Wrong

Just a friendly reminder that some dino class designations (cunning, fierce, resilient, wild card, etc.) don’t make sense. And Ludia has yet to fix any of them. This doesn’t surprise me, but nothing will happen unless we keep making this issue known. See my Class System Explained post for more specifics. But here is a brief overview:

A dinos class should reflect it’s abilities, to help players understand what it is good against and how to counter it. When the class does not reflect what a dink actually does, new players might make bad choices when trying to counterpick against them.

Rather than define entire abilities as one class or another, I broke them down into their component effects (like how definite = shield break + armor piercing + dodge removal), and sorted each ability effect into categories for each class (and neutral abilities that can be found on any class.) So each move can fall under more than one class, although they usually predominantly fall under one specific class. Wild Cards were defined by either a) have abilities from all three classes or b) focus primarily on neutral abilities. From there, they are subdivided into Major and Minor abilities. Major abilities ensure that dinos with these abilities fall into that class. Minor abilities can help designate a class if a sufficient number of them are present on a given dino (usually around 2 or more), but do not make or break a classification (for example, Postosuchus isn’t part resilient simply because it has one healing move). Some minor abilities can be shared by multiple classes. Here are the abilities associated with each class (updated from my original post):

Cunning
Major
Damage Reduction (including damage increase removal), Dodge (including the dodging aspects of Cloak)
Minor
Crit decrease, Speed Increase

Fierce
Major
Shield Break, Damage Over Time
Minor
Armor Piercing, Damage Increase (including damage increase aspects of Cloak), Critical Chance Increase, Swap Prevention, Rend (just the percentage, the shield break/armor piercing of most rending abilities both also count as fierce)

Resilient
Major
Speed Decrease, Shields/Invincibility
Minor
Healing, Vulnerability, Stun, Taunt, Dodge Removal, Precise

Neutral
Cleanse (all), Nullify (all)

Here are the dinos that should change, and what their class should be. This is based on their current movesets; I didn’t change any moves or other attributes (for the most part). I won’t do explanations this time, but feel free to ask questions or state disagreements if you have any, and I’ll be happy to defend (or ammend) my proposals. If I didn’t include a dino, it’s safe to assume that I think it’s current classification is correct (ahem Quetzorion ahem).

Carbotoceratops Resilient to Resilient-Cunning (would prefer it remain pure resilient and lose Distraction for a different ability)

Carnotaurus Wild Card to Fierce-Resilient

Diloracheirus Cunning to Resilient-Cunning

Diloranosaurus Cunning to Resilient-Cunning

Diplodocus Resilient to Fierce-Resilient
(This is because Shield Advantage technically counts as a shield break. I could go either way on this one, but I’ve also heard other people say it should be a Fierce-Resilient too)

Diplovenator Cunning-Fierce to Wild Card
(This is because it has two attacks that remove/bypass dodge. I would prefer that it lose these traits for normal defense shattering to stay a Cunning-Fierce)

Geminititan Resilient to Fierce-Resilient
(This is because Definite Shield Advantage technically counts as a shield break. I could go either way on this one, but I’ve also heard other people say it should be a Fierce-Resilient too)

Indominus Rex Fierce to Cunning-Fierce

Indominus Rex Gen 2 Fierce to Cunning-Fierce

Indoraptor Cunning-Fierce to Cunning

Majundaboa Resilient to Fierce-Resilient

Marsupial Lion Fierce to Cunning-Fierce
(Could go either way on this one. It’s definitely more of a Cunning-Fierce than Spionyx is though. Edit: After 11/6 - 11/8 tournament, it’s hard to argue that it’s dodge isn’t important. Cunning-Fierce fits it well.)

Megalosuchus Fierce-Resilient to Fierce

Monostegotops Wild Card to Resilient-Cunning

Nasutoceratops Wild Card to Resilient-Cunning (would prefer it to be pure resilient and lose Distraction for a different ability)

Pterovexus Wild Card to Cunning-Fierce

Sarcorixis Resilient to Fierce-Resilient

Smilocephalosaurus Cunning to Resilient-Cunning

Spionyx Cunning-Fierce to Fierce-Resilient (could also just be fierce with slight changes to the moveset)

Tanycolagreus? Wild Card to Fierce-Resilient (This one just feels weird, and Wild Card also fits fairly well, but Fierce-Resilient fits what it can do and what it’s good against. However, I would prefer that it get Crafty Strike instead of Definite Strike so it could be more of a true Wild Card)

Let’s make it happen!

8 Likes

I think sarcoxixis is resilient fierce since it has swap prevention and damage increase

6 Likes

Lion is pure Fierce. Prowl main feature is damage buff, dodge is only secundary.

Cunning should be only dodge abilities that include distraction.

Cloak is fierce as increases damage.

Cloak is cunning-fierce, although more cunning as it can be negated with resilient

3 Likes

What about Orion? It’s a cunning that doesn’t distract and a resilient that doesn’t slow

1 Like

But it can dodge and has access to invincibility

1 Like

um they were wildcards for a reason. nausto could stun, decelerate and distract meaning it could do all sorts of things. Wildcard doesn’t mean they have aspects of all the groups, it means they can do several things and don’t have a theme when it comes to their moveset. For example nasuto doesn’t have one move twice lik most creatures. Tarkus would distract, rend and decelerate which made her wild card.

Lol that was a typo, I meant to say fierce resilient. Fixed now!

oh no it’s sarcoxixis, better beware of its distraction and dodge like all of the cunning creatures have

2 Likes

I’m not sure i agree with that definition. Erlidominus can’t use the same kind of effect in two different moves, but it’s clearly a cunning. Why? Because all of those different effects fall under the cunning class. Same goes for Indoraptor. And Pterovexus CAN use the same effect twice (wound), but it IS a wild card. Or what about Monolorhino, which has two shields?

Also, for Ludias own definition of wild card has more to to with utility in swap-in teams, apparently? (This is according to one of their tips, which I’ll try to get a screenshot of). Which for one sounds really subjective, and also doesn’t fit the current classifications. What makes Tenontorex good on swap in teams? And why then are Dracorex and Phorusaura not wild cards?

Since I defined every other class by their moves, it makes sense to have a move-based definition of Wild Cards as well. The one I used just happens to be what I think makes the most sense.

This one I could go either way on. Its more of a technicality of strictly following the class definitions I set (i.e. anything with dodge should be cunning). But it is a particularly minor part of it’s kit, so I wouldn’t mind it staying pure fierce. Plus, given that it has two rending moves and immunity to deceleration, its clear that if you were trying to counter it, you would go with a cunning. That said, many existing cunning fierce are also only weak to cunning (like Alloraptor, Tyrannolophosaur, Magnapyritor and Monolometerodon).

This I don’t agree with. Dodge and distraction don’t always have to go together, just like shields and deceleration don’t have to go together. There are some dinos where their shields are the only possible “resilient” thing about them, but they can’t decelerate (like Grypolith and some counter-attacking theropods). And there are some dinos where dodge is their only cunning element (like Gallimimus, Kelenken, and Phorusrochos). So dodge does not require distraction on the same dino in order to make them cunning. And if Dodge and Distraction must go together in the same move to be cunning, then Cautious Strike would be the only cunning dodge move in the game.

But this is why I split more complicated moves into their individual effects. Like with cloak, yes it does have a damage increase, but it also undoubtedly acts as a 1 turn dodge too. If you wanted to counter cloak, you would send out a dino that can remove dodge, likely a resilient. Not to mention that Invincibility is the only way to stop Indominus’s strongest attacks (the classic swap in Invincibility). So cloak overall IS a Cunning-Fierce ability, but since Indominus already has Fierce covered, it simply adds the cunning classification to it. Now you may be wondering, why then I didn’t call Erlidominus Cunning-Fierce as well? But that’s where the major and Minor rankings come in. Damage Increase is only a minor fierce ability (Mammolania has it, but it clearly is not fierce), whereas Dodge is a major cunning ability. So while cloak by itself cannot make a dino fierce, it can make one cunning.

Orion is definitely not a traditional cunning or resilient, but like @Tuophysis said, it still has significant traits of both. It’s a defense-oriented Resilient-Cunning.

What I meant to say was it can’t have moves symboling that its a certain class, plus erlidom distracts, increases speed and dodges which is 3, I guess in a way make it 2.5. Dracocrex isn’t a wildcard cuz it only has resilient and stun which are classified as resilient. For example tarkus has a netural move, a rending counter, distraction, decel making it 100% wild card. There isn’t 1 class that is more obious within the creature than the other.

ludia’s definition of wildcard within the charachter sheet: one that can be played in most scenarios

This is the gist of what I believe, too. But for these wild cards, there ARE classes that are more obvious within that creature then others. And unless all three classes are represented, one of the hybrid classes would suit them better then “wild card”. For Nasutoceratops, its resilient (deceleration and stun) and cunning (distraction). For Pterovexus, it’s cunning (distraction) and fierce (bleed and swap prevention). So “Wild Card” doesn’t really fit. For Tarkus though, I 100% agree that it is a wild card, since it has deceleration and shield (resilient), distraction (cunning), and rend w/ shield break (fierce). Same goes for Tenontorex, Suchotator, Thylacotator, etc. Wild Cards should defintely exist, but they need to be more explicitly defined.

This is why I separated ability effects into “major” and “minor”, with only Major effects being class-defining by themselves. I actually chose which effects were “major” (class defining) quite deliberately. They are all effects that Ludia has used to define a dino’s class by themselves. For example, distraction is the only effect Velocity has, and Ludia calls Velociraptor cunning, so Distraction is a major cunning ability. These also aren’t commonly found on other classes abilities. For example, speedup is the only cunning element on Deinochierus. But speedup is also featured in Dig In (generally a resilient ability) and mutual fury (general a fierce ability), so it is only a minor cunning effect. Minor effects can define a class if there are enough of them though. For example, Sarcorixis has no major fierce effects, but it does have minor fierce effects on three of it’s attacks (swap prevention on Immobilize and No Escape, and of course damage increase on Ferocious Impact), so these together can make it partially fierce.

Onyx is part cunning because it has DOT resistance. Also anti dodge for a good portion of its kit.

Camouflage is also dodge and distracting move.

Agree on Indoms though. Their dodge is minor part of their kit, so it’s better keep them pure fierce.

Would say same for Lion. While it’s dodge can be significant in some matchups, it main abilities are fierce.

Anti dodge is resilient too though. And I see nothing wrong with fierce dinos, especially DoT users, resisting DoT. It’s kind of like how some cunnings have precise attacks: it helps them have a more neutral matchup against dodgers (other cunnings).

Thinking about what Spionyx is good against, it excels against high health tanks (resilient) and dodge users (cunning). Which other dinos are good against resilient and cunning? Ardentismaxima and Trykosaurus. Both are Fierce-Resilient. So if they do want to acknowledge the anti-dodge aspects of Spionyx (which I agree should not be overlooked), then it should be Fierce-Resilient too. If it’s partially cunning, that implies that Resilients would have some kind of advantage over it, but Spionyx counters them very effectively.

So Phorusrochos shouldn’t be cunning because it can’t distract? If not, what is it then?

But again, it’s also resilient, which Gemini is. Dodge removal is literally part of all “resilient” attacks.