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(Somewhat) Objectively rebalancing all the Uniques + proving that you don’t need to nerf Maxima (much) to have it be balanced + Poll

How these rebalancing threads would usually go is I would come up with a bunch of wacky rebalancing ideas, and y’all would estimate how good each creature is, and judge the reworks based on that. But obviously that’s not a very good way of going about it, since you can’t necessarily predict how each creature will do in different matchups at a glance, plus personal biases can often work their way into the changes.

The difference here is that I’ve already calculated all the important matchups you, so you can see for yourself how good each creature is (I’m only considering Uniques here). That said, Dracoceratosaurus doesn’t win many matchups because it can revenge-kill and has a good SIA, while Pterovexus has a lot of chaotic matchups that can go a bunch of different ways, so those two are sort of exceptions.

The reason this thread is in the suggestions category is that I’m also suggesting a bunch of changes that makes balancing Resilient-Fierce hybrids easier in the future, as well as ways to make every Unique relevant without changing people’s raid strategies too much (especially the Irritator strategy, of course).

The changes
  1. The Vulnerability multiplier would now affect DoT, and the vulnerability debuff would be added to the movesets of certain bleeders. While it may seem like they would deal way too much damage, Cunning creatures are now either resistant to or can cleanse DoT, and Fierce creatures are now either resistant to or can cleanse Vulnerability, meaning it would allow bleeeders to deal appropriately massive damage to the huge-HP resilient creatures and some resilient-fierce hybrids as well.

  2. More bleeders need to be Immune to Deceleration, I mean, it’s common sense.

  3. Making the hadrosaurs relevant in PvP again: poll

We know that Ludia has the ability to make moves that act differently in different situations (revenge moves), and the game makes a distinction between arena and raids [the taunt symbol only shows up in raids, and moves show their targeting symbols only in raids, and of course, some moves (AoE moves) already work slightly differently in raids] so I suggest that we make a new type of move that acts as one move in the arena, and another in raids. They could be called supportive moves.

This would allow creatures like the “hadrosaurs” to be arena-relevant again, as well as sort out issues with moves like Instant Invincibility Taunt, if Ludia insist that change number 4 not be implemented

  1. Speaking of change number four, Instant Invincibility Taunt would block 1 attack, lasting 1 turn, since that would make it basically the same as before 2.0, back when everyone was happy with it. It’s such a simple change, I really hope they consider it.

  2. Nullifying multiplier moves can go back to having a 1-turn cooldown.

  3. All DoT and Rending abilities that deal 0.25x opponent max HP should be changed to 0.26x to account for rounding issues

As you might imagine, a ton of math went into this thread, and you’re welcome to check the calculations for yourselves and point out any mistakes that might have crept in unnoticed.

Alright, now on to the reworks themselves (when I state that a creature beats another, it is implied that the chance of victory is 75% or higher, unless specified otherwise):

Ardentismaxima

HP~ 6000
Attack~1200
Speed~108
Armour~15%
Critical chance ~30%

*Resilient Strike
*Group Decelerating Rampage
*Defense-shattering Rampage
*Instant Invincibility Taunt

100% resistance to Stuns, Deceleration, Taunt, Critical chance reduction
50% resistance to Distraction
25% resistance to Vulnerability

It beats: Erlidominus, Diloracheirus, Diorajasaur, Dracoceratosaurus, Quetzorion, Smilonemys, Testacornibus, Indoraptor, Tuoramoloch, Utarinex, Thoradolosaur

It is beaten by: Mammolania, Spinoconstrictor, Geminititan, Tenontorex, Grypolyth, Stigydaryx (swapping-in)

Pterovexus beats it by swapping in 70% of the time, it’s a draw for the remaining 30% of the time.

50/50: It beats Trykosaurus and Magnapyritor 51% of the time

It draws against: Erlikospyx

Diloracheirus

HP~4200
Attack~1600
Speed~129
Critical chance~5%

*Cunning Strike
*Cunning Impact-and-run
*Supportive Stunning Rampage [In the arena this acts as Greater Stunning Rampage, so it has a 1-turn delay and a 2-turn cooldown. In raids, it’s Greater Emergency Heal]
*Supportive Superiority Impact [In the arena this acts as Superiority Impact (it is precise) so it has a 1-turn cooldown, no delay. In raids, it’s Lesser Group Heal]

100% DoT resistance
100% Rend Resistance

It beats: Erlikospyx, Thoradolosaur, Tenontorex, Magnapyritor, Dracoceratosaurus, Quetzorion, Spinoconstrictor, Geminititan, Grypolyth, Utarinex

It is beaten by: Mammolania, Erlidominus, Ardentismaxima, Indoraptor, Diorajasaur, Monolorhino, Smilonemys, Testacornibus, Tuoramoloch, Stigydaryx, Trykosaurus

Speed tie: Pterovexus

Diorajasaur

HP~4500
Attack~1200
Speed~107
Armour~30%
Critical chance~

*Resilient Strike
*Resilient Rampage
*Group Taunting Shields
*Instant Invincibility Taunt

*Shattering Decelerating Counter (1x damage, 33% speed reduction)

It beats: Erlidominus, Mammolania, Diloracheirus, Monolorhino, Dracoceratosaurus, Quetzorion, Smilonemys, Indoraptor, Utarinex, Tuoramoloch, Testacornibus

It is beaten by: Ardentismaxima, Magnapyritor, Spinoconstrictor, Stigydaryx (swapping in, otherwise ally takes 1200 damage), Grypolyth, Thoradolosaur, Trykosaurus

Geminititan beats it 70% of the time

50/50: It beats Tenontorex 51% of the time

It draws against: Erlikospyx

Dracoceratosaurus

HP~3600
Attack~1610
Speed~121
Critical chance~5%

*Fierce Strike
*Cunning Impact
*Fierce Impact
*Cleansing Impact

*Swap-in Savagery

100% resistance to Swap-prevention

It beats: Thoradolosaur, Grypolyth

It is beaten by: Everything else. Not much of a 1v1 dino.

Quetzorion

HP~3800
Attack~1500
Speed~130
Critical chance~20%

*Crafty Strike
*Nullifying Rampage
*Long Invincibility
*Sidestep

*Nullifying Counter
*Swap-in Dodge

100% resistance to Distraction
50% resistance to DoT, Rend

It beats: Magnapyritor, Monolorhino, Dracoceratosaurus, Pterovexus, Erlidominus, Spinoconstrictor, Erlikospyx, Stigydaryx, Utarinex, Indoraptor, Grypolyth, Tuoramoloch

It is beaten by: Ardentismaxima, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Geminititan, Tenontorex, Thoradolosaur, Trykosaurus, Diloracheirus, Smilonemys, Testacornibus

Magnapyritor

HP~3750
Attack~1450
Speed~128
Critical chance: 20%

*Nullifying Strike
*Defense-shattering Impact
*Distracting Impact
*Defense-shattering Rampage

100% resistance to Deceleration, Stuns, Swap-prevention, Vulnerability, DoT
50% resistance to Rend

It beats: Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Monolorhino, Dracoceratosaurus, Smilonemys, Spinoconstrictor, Stigydaryx, Thoradolosaur, Trykosaurus, Testacornibus, Grypolyth

It is beaten by: Diloracheirus, Pterovexus, Quetzorion, Erlidominus, Erlikospyx, Indoraptor, Tuoramoloch, Tenontorex, Utarinex

Geminititan beats it 64% of the time

50/50: Ardentismaxima beats it 51% of the time

Mammolania

HP~4350
Attack~1070
Speed ~115
Armour~40%
Critical chance~5%

*Superior Vulnerability
*Ferocious Precise Rampage [+50% attack for 2 turns, deal 2x damage bypassing Cloak and evasion, Delay:0, Cooldown:1]
*Dig-in Taunt
*Taunting Bellow

100% resistance to Stuns
90% resistance to Deceleration

It beats: Ardentismaxima, Diloracheirus, Dracoceratosaurus, Quetzorion, Erlidominus, Erlikospyx, Monolorhino, Indoraptor, Utarinex, Tuoramoloch, Testacornibus

It is beaten by: Magnapyritor, Diorajasaur, Smilonemys, Spinoconstrictor, Geminititan, Tenontorex, Grypolyth, Thoradolosaur, Trykosaurus

Mind games: Stigydaryx (ally takes damage), Pterovexus (ally takes damage)

Monolorhino

HP~4200
Attack~1200
Speed~120
Armour~5%
Critical chance~5%

*Cunning Strike
*Distracting Impact
*Definite Rampage [cooldown:1]
*Group Invincibility

*Swap-in Headbutt

100% resistance to Vulnerability, DoT, Stuns
80% resistance to Deceleration
25% resistance to Distraction, Rend

It beats: Utarinex, Spinoconstrictor, Erlikospyx, Stigydaryx, Tenontorex, Thoradolosaur, Indoraptor, Diloracheirus, Dracoceratosaurus, Trykosaurus

It is beaten by: Geminititan, Ardentismaxima, Magnapyritor, Pterovexus, Diorajasaur, Tuoramoloch, Grypolyth, Erlidominus, Quetzorion, Smilonemys

Mind games: Testacornibus

Pterovexus

HP~3900
Attack~1250
Speed~129
Critical chance~5%

Cunning Strike
*Venomous Impact[Cunning Impact+Binding Impact, Cooldown:1]
*Evasive Impact[Deal 1.5x damage. 100% chance to dodge 67% of incoming damage for 1 attack, lasting 1 turn. Delay:0, Cooldown:2]
*Cleansing Swoop

*Swap-in Wounding Vulnerability [Swap-in Wound+ Vulnerability for 2 turns]

100% resistance to Deceleration, Distraction, Stuns, Swap-prevention, DoT, Vulnerability
50% Rend resistance

It beats: Magnapyritor, Stigydaryx, Testacornibus (swapping-in), Utarinex, Monolorhino, Dracoceratosaurus

It beats Ardentismaxima 70% of the time by swapping-in, and draws the remaining 30% of the time.

It is beaten by: Grypolyth, Thoradolosaur, Quetzorion, Indoraptor, Spinoconstrictor, Erlidominus

It is somewhat viable against the rest, with allies taking variable damage and the matchup even ending in a draw in some cases. So that part is up to your judgement.

Speed-tie: Erlikospyx, Diloracheirus

Mind games: Erlidominus

Smilonemys

HP~3900
Attack~1200
Speed~127
Armour~50%
Critical chance~5%

*Shielded Decelerating Strike
*Precise Pounce
*Deliberate Prowl
*Devastation-and-run [Not precise, Delay:2, Cooldown:1]

*Swap-in Stun

100% resistance to Stuns
50% resistance to Deceleration

It beats: Erlidominus, Erlikospyx, Diloracheirus, Tuoramoloch, Utarinex, Quetzorion, Monolorhino, Mammolania, Dracoceratosaurus, Testacornibus

It is beaten by: Ardentismaxima, Indoraptor, Spinoconstrictor, Thoradolosaur, Magnapyritor, Diorajasaur, Geminititan, Grypolyth

Mind games: Trykosaurus, Tenontorex

Erlidominus

HP~3000
Attack~1500
Speed~129
Critical chance~20%

*Precise Minimal Speedup Strike
*Rampage
*Revenge Cloak
*Strike-and-run [Look, there are much better creatures than Erlidominus to be used in Raids. Surely you could just try a different strategy, right? But if you insist, I can always make it Supportive Strike-and-run instead, so it acts as Distracting Impact in raids]

100% Resistance to Distraction, Deceleration, Stuns, Swap-prevention
50% Resistance to Vulnerability, Rend

It beats: Magnapyritor, Diloracheirus, Dracoceratosaurus, Spinoconstrictor, Pterovexus, Stigydaryx, Tenontorex, Indoraptor, Thoradolosaur, Utarinex, Monolorhino

It is beaten by: Ardentismaxima, Erlikospyx, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Quetzorion, Smilonemys, Geminititan, Grypolyth, Testacornibus, Trykosaurus, Tuoramoloch (swapping-in)

Erlikospyx

HP~3750
Attack~1650
Speed~129
Critical chance~5%

*Minor Rending Attack
*Maiming Wound
*Precise Pounce
*Ready to Crush

*Swap-in Mutual Fury

100% resistance to Distraction, DoT
50% resistance to Vulnerability, Deceleration, Rend

It beats: Magnapyritor, Dracoceratosaurus, Erlidominus, Indoraptor, Thoradolosaur, Spinoconstrictor, Grypolyth

It is beaten by: Diloracheirus, Mammolania, Monolorhino, Quetzorion, Stigydaryx, Testacornibus, Tuoramoloch, Geminititan

It draws against: Trykosaurus, Diorajasaur, Ardentismaxima

Mind games: Tenontorex, Smilonemys (draw or loss)

When set up with SI-MF, it beats: Grypolyth, Thoradolosaur, Diloracheirus, Utarinex, Spinoconstrictor, Quetzorion, Monolorhino, Pterovexus, Stigydaryx (1v1), Erlidominus, Magnapyritor, Tuoramoloch, Indoraptor, Tenontorex

Geminititan

HP~6000
Attack~1400
Speed~119
Critical chance~5%

*Definite Shielding Strike
*Cunning Impact
*Group Decelerating Impact
*Definite Shield Advantage

*Swap-in Bellow

100% resistance to Deceleration
75% resistance to Distraction

It beats: Monolorhino, Quetzorion, Smilonemys, Mammolania, Ardentismaxima, Erlidominus, Trykosaurus, Dracoceratosaurus, Tenontorex, Indoraptor

It beats Diorajasaur 70% of the time, and Magnapyritor 64% of the time

It is beaten by: Stigydaryx (swapping in), Diloracheirus, Spinoconstrictor, Thoradolosaur, Tuoramoloch, Grypolyth, Testacornibus, Utarinex

Mind games: Erlikospyx

Grypolyth

HP~4250
Attack~1000
Speed~116
Armour~20%
Critical chance~20%

*Cleansing Shattering Strike
*Long Protection
*Group Ferocity
*Greater Emergency Heal

*Rending Counter-attack
*No Escape

It beats: Erlidominus, Ardentismaxima, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Smilonemys, Testacornibus, Stigydaryx, Tuoramoloch, Pterovexus, Spinoconstrictor (iffy), Monolorhino

It is beaten by: Magnapyritor, Thoradolosaur, Tenontorex, Trykosaurus, Quetzorion, Utarinex, Erlikospyx, Diloracheirus, Indoraptor, Dracoceratosaurus

Indoraptor

HP~3900
Attack~1420
Speed~128
Critical chance~20%

*Cleansing Shattering Strike
*Cunning Impact
*Armour-piercing Rampage
*Cloak

100% resistance to Stuns, Distraction
75% resistance to critical chance reduction

It beats: Magnapyritor, Diloracheirus, Pterovexus, Smilonemys, Testacornibus, Stigydaryx, Dracoceratosaurus, Thoradolosaur, Utarinex, Grypolyth

It beats Tenontorex 64% of the time

It is beaten by: Erlidominus, Ardentismaxima, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Monolorhino, Quetzorion, Spinoconstrictor, Erlikospyx, Geminititan, Tuoramoloch

Mind games: Trykosaurus

Spinoconstrictor

HP~3750
Attack~1000
Speed~122
Critical chance~10%

*Cunning Strike
*Precise Rampage
*Sidestep
*Exploit Wound

*Wounding Counter
*On Escape Evasive Impact

100% resistance to Distraction, Deceleration
50% resistance to Swap-prevention

It beats: Ardentismaxima, Smilonemys, Mammolania, Geminititan, Indoraptor, Testacornibus, Diorajasaur, Dracoceratosaurus, Trykosaurus, Tenontorex, Pterovexus

It is beaten by: Erlidominus, Monolorhino, Quetzorion, Diloracheirus, Magnapyritor, Erlikospyx, Utarinex, Thoradolosaur, Grypolyth, Tuoramoloch

Mind games: Stigydaryx

Stigydaryx

HP~4200
Attack~1170
Speed~126
Critical chance~5%

*Superior Vulnerability
*Lethal Swoop [delay:0]
*Cleansing Swoop
*Revenge Shattering Rampage

*Swap-in Compromising Invincibility [Swap-in Invincibility+ Vulnerability for 3 turns]
*No Escape

100% resistance to DoT, Deceleration, Swap-prevention, Vulnerability

It beats: Erlikospyx, Diorajasaur (swapping in, otherwise ally takes 1200 damage), Dracoceratosaurus, Tuoramoloch, Geminititan (swapping-in), Ardentismaxima (swapping-in), Trykosaurus (swapping-in), Diloracheirus

It is beaten by: Magnapyritor, Testacornibus, Erlidominus, Monolorhino, Pterovexus, Quetzorion, Grypolyth, Thoradolosaur, Indoraptor, Utarinex, Tenontorex

Mind games: Spinoconstrictor

Tenontorex

HP~4500
Attack~1900
Speed~110
Critical chance~20%

*Superiority Strike (Precise)
*Lesser Group Heal
*Defense-shattering Rampage
*Distracting Impact

100% resistance to Vulnerability

It beats: Ardentismaxima, Magnapyritor, Mammolania, Quetzorion, Stigydaryx, Trykosaurus, Dracoceratosaurus, Thoradolosaur, Grypolyth

It is beaten by: Erlidominus, Diloracheirus, Monolorhino, Spinoconstrictor, Geminititan, Utarinex, Tuoramoloch, Testacornibus

Pterovexus wins 64% of the time, and Indoraptor in’s 64% of the time

50/50: Diorajasaur beats it 51% of the time

Mind games: Smilonemys, Erlikospyx

Testacornibus

HP~3900
Attack~1000
Speed127
Armour~50%
Critical chance~5%

*Shielded Decelerating Strike
*Superiority Impact
*Subdue [100% chance to stun for 1 turn, opponent vulnerable for 3 turns, Delay:0, Cooldown:2]
*Superiority Devastation

*On Escape Heal
*Swap-in Distraction

100% resistance to Stuns, Deceleration

It beats: Dracoceratosaurus, Geminititan, Tuoramoloch, Diloracheirus, Erlikospyx, Erlidominus, Stigydaryx, Utarinex, Pterovexus, Quetzorion, Tenontorex

Beaten by: Thoradolosaur, Ardentismaxima, Spinoconstrictor, Grypolyth, Magnapyritor, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Smilonemys, Trykosaurus, Indoraptor

Mind games: Monolorhino

Thoradolosaur

HP~4200
Attack~1800
Speed~109
Armour~15%
Critical chance~40%

*Defense-shattering Strike
*Group Shattering Impact
*Group Shattering Rampage [Delay:1, Cooldown:2]
*Instant Obliteration [Priority. Destroy shields, deal 1x damage bypassing armour. 75% chance to stun opponent for 1 turn. Delay:1, Cooldown:2]

100% resistance to Vulnerability

It beats: Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Pterovexus, Smilonemys, Spinoconstrictor, Stigydaryx, Geminititan, Grypolyth, Testacornibus, Trykosaurus, Tuoramoloch

It is beaten by: Erlidominus, Ardentismaxima, Magnapyritor, Diloracheirus, Monolorhino, Tenontorex, Indoraptor, Utarinex, Dracoceratosaurus, Erlikospyx

Trykosaurus

HP~4500
Attack~1650
Speed~108
Armour~30%
Critical chance~20%

*Defense-shattering Strike
*Precise Slowing Impact
*Fierce Rampage
*Instant Invincibility Taunt

*Medium Raking Counter

50% resistance to Vulnerability

It beats: Erlidominus, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Quetzorion, Testacornibus, Grypolyth, Dracoceratosaurus, Diloracheirus, Utarinex.

Beaten by: Magnapyritor, Monolorhino, Spinoconstrictor, Tenontorex, Stigydaryx (swap-in), Thoradolosaur, Geminititan

50/50: Ardentismaxima wins 51% of the time

Draws: Erlikospyx

*Mind games: Indoraptor, Tuoramoloch and Smilonemys

Tuoramoloch

HP~4500
Attack~1500
Speed~126
Critical chance ~5%

*Group Accelerating Strike [Group Acceleration, but in Strike form, yes it’s a priority move]
*Supportive Superiority Impact
*Supportive Stunning Rampage
*Superiority Strike-and run [yes, it’s precise]

*Deceleration counter [No damage, -50% speed]
*Swap-in Defense

It beats: Erlidominus (by swapping in), Magnapyritor, Dilorach, Dracoceratosaurus, Erlikospyx, Geminititan, Tenontorex, Trykosaurus, Spinoconstrictor.

It is beaten by: Ardentismaxima, Diorajasaur, Mammolania, Thoradolosaur, Smilonemys, Indoraptor, Testacornibus, Quetzorion, Grypolyth, Utarinex

Utarinex

HP~3600 HP
Attack~1500
Speed~127
Armour~15%
Critical chance~10%

*Cunning Strike
*Distracting Impact
*Instant Trauma [Instant Charge, but 1.5x damage]
*Resilient Rampage-and-run

75% resistance to Rend
70% resistance to Distraction
50% resistant to DoT

It beats: Magnapyritor, Spinoconstrictor, Stigydaryx, Geminititan, Tenontorex, Grypolyth, Dracoceratosaurus, Thoradolosaur, Tuoramoloch, Erlikospyx

It is beaten by: Erlidominus, Ardentismaxima, Mammolania, Diorajasaur, Monolorhino, Quetzorion, Smilonemys, Testacornibus, Trykosaurus, Indoraptor, Pterovexus

And that’s it. Seem balanced to you? Some of the slower creatures counter more creatures than their number of counters, but they can be easily revenge-killed, unlike the speedsters, which are the opposite.
There’s also room for more creatures to be added, so the lists can even out over time if some of them aren’t completely satisfactory right now.

Now for your opinions. Do you support the changes mentioned in this thread (the ones before the reworks)?

  • Yes
  • No
  • Neutral
  • Partially

0 voters

Do you think that the Unique reworks posted here are balanced in the context of each other?

  • Yes
  • No
  • Almost

0 voters

And lastly, would you like Ludia to rebalance them in a similar manner?

  • Yes
  • No
  • Neutral

0 voters

9 Likes

Wow I have so much respect for how much work went into making this! I think I need a lot of time to really take in all of the changes, but they look good so far.

4 Likes

Some look like they were buffed too much. Thor - didn’t need a GROUP rampage, speed may be a touch too high, and instant obliteration might be too strong. Tauromoloch having group acceleration every turn may be too strong. Utarinex overall looks very good, though I do miss it having a slowing move, so getting one of those back would be nice (especially since Dracorex is resilient). Some look like they were nerfed too much. Tryko losing resilient impact and a slowing counter makes it lose a lot of it’s power. But overall I find all the new ideas very interesting.

3 Likes

I’d give Tenontorex some Resistance to deceleration so that Ardentismaxima is guarenteed to lose against it, unless there’s something I missed.

1 Like

Then we will get nitro tenontorex with 149 speed and 2000+ damage. Sooo nooo

3 Likes

I said some Resistance, not complete resistance. Otherwise, in this scenario there’s no guaranteed victory against Ardentismaxima, especially if boosts are indeed a factor.

1 Like

All maxima needs really is the rampage decel turned into an impact and bam it is just a lot more balanced.

Rampage over rampage on a 9-10k 2k+ hitter is a wee much. Love the changes you proposed!

3 Likes

It would be better for Defense Shattering to become the Impact, since Group Decel Rampage is better in the raids

4 Likes

Could work too. One of the rampages oughta do it to be honest.

One thing to remember is that Ardontosaurus has DSR and group decelerating impact, so you don’t want a situation where it becomes the superior option over Maxima. Maxima has much more health, so I don’t think that should be an issue. But if the shattering rampage is more valuable, that could happen.

Base stats should be lowered just a tad then. Leaving it superior to its predecessor.

Looks good, but gemini’s stats is too good to rebalance

1 Like

Yeah, in hindsight GSR on Thoradolosaur does way more damage than any of the other Group-damaging moves. As for the speed and Instant Obliteration, as well as Group Accelerating Strike, too strong in what context? I mean, I kind of thought the matchups would speak for themselves in these scenarios. Remember that Tuoramoloch can be Decelerated now.

I really wanted to give Utarinex a resilient move, but I couldn’t really do that, since we already have 2 deceleration-speedsters among the Uniques (Dilorach and Tuora, and I guess you could count Monolorhino) so I wanted to give it a separate role. I did give it Resilient Rampage-and-run though.

You missed the fact that Tenontorex already beats Ardentismaxima, as I stated in the thread. In fact, it beats it 91% of the time.

The only reason I changed the counter was Dsungaia. You see, a while ago Dsungaia’s claim to fame was it being to only creature in the game with Decelerating Counter. That also made the prospect of it getting a Unique somewhat exciting, but now Decelerating counter is ubiquitous, so I wanted Dsungaia’s eventual Unique to have a Decelerating Counter that eclipsed all the others. This is also why I gave a number of creatures less than 100% Deceleration resistance, and why Dio’s counter only decelerates by 33%. This way when it arrives, it’ll have a bit more of a role than it would otherwise, if Ludia gives it some really high Deceleration percentages.

I personally don’t have a problem with the speed, but some people are afraid of those Thors that get a bunch of speed boosts poured into them. Thor is meant to work at a speed disadvantage (with high health and an instant move, especially one that could break shields as instant obliteration would do), and having it be faster than many of its matches would be pretty unfair. It’s not too bad though, maybe slow it to 106 or something? The instant obliteration is a really cool idea, but its also an instant stunning move that can’t be shielded against, so not much counterplay unless you got a distraction on Thor previously. And with the buffed attack, it would be even more lethal. I like the move though in a vacuum, and if any dino in the game had it, it should be Thor. I like each component individually (boost attack and hp, give armor, give back a rampage, buff it’s instant charge), and alone each change is fine, but together they combine into a deadly package. That said, the matchup spread is pretty much exactly where you’d want it, though I’d worry about Thor becoming even more of a boosted monster than it already is.

That’s true, and it helps. But no other instant attack (that does damage) can be used every turn. So being slowed doesn’t really matter - it can always attack first, and it would cleanse deceleration every turn. And with 1500 attack, that’s nothing to sneeze at. Plus the decelerating counter and all it’s decelerating moves pretty much guarantee it will always be at a speee advantage, since pretty much anything with a higher base speed can be slowed every turn. It’s like trying to slow down a Quetzorion, only instead of dodging it hits you back, and instead of getting nullified you get slowed. This would also be pretty OP in raids, being able to hit and speed boost/cleanse deceleration your whole team every turn.

That’s fair. It’s an interesting mechanic to slow your opponent right before going into a switch (and removing dodges too), I just miss slowing opponents before hitting them again with another move. But this is a lot more unique and interesting.

I would just switch Trykos counter with Dio then. Dio already has the raking counter, and it fits as an evolution of the armor piercing counter of Rajankylosaurus and Rajasaurus. Trykos counter “evolved” from its Ankytrosaurus ancestry, specifically Kentrosaurus’ slowing counter. So it makes more sense for Tryko to have the slowing counter out of these two. I love the idea of a slightly-slowing shattering counter, but Tryko (as a fierce-resilient hybrid with a family history of both shield breaking attacks and slowing counters that Dio’s line pales in comparison to) makes the most sense to have this move, not Dio. Dio can slow every turn anyway, so it doesn’t need that in it’s counter too. It would also be nice for Tryko to have a move that can cleanse distraction, as long as it’s on a cooldown (maybe superiority impact?). It shouldn’t be able to do this every turn, but with all the distractors out there, it should be able to land full strength hits sometimes, right? I never felt like Tryko was quite as broken or hard to counter as Maxima, so it probably didn’t need to lose both a slowing counter and distraction cleansing, but maybe others feel differently?

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This exciting me too. I wonder if they could give it a ferocious decelerating counter? That would be cool. Of course, it would probably depend on what they fused it with.

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Shielding against Instant Charge isn’t really viable. In most scenarios you risk allowing the Thor to use DSI, which would allow it beat your creature pretty easily.
But I understand the boosting concerns. I actually used GSR as an excuse to give it’s Rampage an extra turn of Cooldown, so nitro Thors are at a disadvantage, while regular Thors are oblivious.

Plenty of Uniques are Immune to Deceleration now, so that Decel Counter on Tuora actually doesn’t make a difference against most of its counters.
As for Raids, being faster than your opponent is great, but being able to use that ability more often makes no difference as of now.

Tuojiangosaurus has Decel counter too, so both have reason to have a counter like that. I chose Dio because it is a dedicated resilient creature for the most part, and it has Decel Counter more recently in its ancestry. Trykosaurus is more anti-tank, which is why it got raking counter, to combat evasion like Ankyntro’s medium resilient counter, but with the benefit of piercing armour at the cost of deceleration.
Trykosaurus also has a multi-turn Deceleration move it can alternate.

I think they do. Besides I buffed it’s stats to more or less what they used to be so hopefully it makes up for that.

I was thinking of something along these lines:
Supreme Decelerating Counter: On receiving and surviving direct damage, deal 1x damage, cleanse deceleration, -50% opponent’s speed for 1 turn.

This would allow it to Decelerate creatures that would otherwise be practically impossible to Decelerate, like Monolorhino, Mammolania, etc.

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Those are all fair points, but I’ll still stand by what I said before. GSR having a longer cooldown would help, but doing that much damage in raids is probably still too much. You have good points about instant obliteration though.

For Tuoramoloch, I still think having any instant damaging attack with no cooldown is too strong, regardless of other effects. While the moveset doesn’t help much against it’s counters, it would make Tuoramoloch even more oppressive in it’s good matchups against speedsters. And do we really need more strong speedster counters right now? It would be fine if it did no damage, but the move is fine how it is now. But I understand how you wanted to keep that ability along with the new supportive moves (which are a very good idea imo). Maybe if you gave it superiority strike as it’s basic move and used the current version of group acceleration as the last move instead?

And I still think having a slowing counter is more superfluous on Dio than Tryko, since it has resilient strike. Don’t forget that the other half of that counter is defense-shattering: something that none of Dios components has, but something T Rex is practically famous for. That doesn’t mean Dio couldn’t have that move, but I still think Tryko makes more sense. The stat buffs do help a bit with the loss of distraction cleansing though, so if you swapped those counters it would probably be fine.

No complaints on the theoretical Dsungaia hybrid, I really like that counter. Somewhat Ironically, it makes it really good against non-deceleration-immune slowing creatures, so if fused with another fierce dino that hybrid would be another great fierce unique option that we could really use right now.

I agree, if I had a chance to redo it I would revert it to DSR.

I actually made pretty odd mistake while typing out it’s counters, I was half asleep at the time and I think I didn’t notice autocorrect changing what I had typed lol


Anyway, I’ve corrected it now. It’s speedster counters are Utarinex, Indoraptor, Smilonemys and Testacornibus, and they all have no problem taking it down with or without Group Accelerating Strike. In fact, even in the worst case scenario where Tuoramoloch is set up with a massive speed buff, it inevitably still loses to all of them.

That is definitely a viable option. I’ll take it into consideration, but it would have to be 1x damage with a 1-turn cooldown so as not to mess with any matchups.

It does make more sense to have Trykosaurus wreck shields with its counter, but Diorajasaur needs it way more, while Trykosaurus is relevant regardless. Diorajasaur would probably lose a lot of the matchups it currently wins if it lost the defense-shattering part of its counter so it is essential that that counter stay as it is. The deceleration is needed too, it’s all there for a reason.

I also just remembered that Trykosaurus’ counter having Deceleration and/or the ability to destroy shields would also mess up some of its matchups, and they’re looking pretty good now, so I don’t really want them to change. I’m all for giving it something a bit cooler, since it is Trykosaurus after all, but we can’t have it being unbalanced.

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Wow just realised that there are 23 unique and Arden should have defense shattering impact