Ludia Forums

Thank you very much Game Press for the new Dinodex list .... and a big question about Erlikospix?

First of all, congratulate the people of gamePress and their collaborators for the improved list of creatures with their counters and best matchups. A spectacular job that is a great help. Congratulations and thank you.

I have looked a little at the results and now I have understood something that I did not understand. I created the Erlikospix because it was and is a Tyrant and I assumed that it would be a good piece in my team … but the experience showed me that it was almost useless. I thought what am I doing wrong? Now I see in your conclusions that Erlikospyx is only able to defeat more than 50% of a Tyrant (Magna) of 9 (11%), 7 High Apex1 of 15 (47%), 8 of 20 Mid Apex (40%) and 5 of 9 Low Apex (56%) … so why is it a Tyrant? With those results it should be between Mid Apex and Low Apex, right? I know that the categories are created with more complete simulations, but since this creature has no hit of entry, I find it impossible that with those bad individual results he/she can have good data in group. Does anyone dare to give me an explanation?

3 Likes

It’s a low HP speedster that can be distracted and candy for Dracoceratops. I also find it really weak and I’m surprised Ludia didn’t make it a bit stronger. I know it’s immune to deceleration/superiority but that only helps that dino a little bit.

Thanks @xescot, I’ll pass on the kind words to the team.

Generally speaking - When it comes to the tier list, the sim results are only 1 factor considered because while they offer incredible data, there are limitations to the simulations such as dinos being unable to switch out or switch in with an attack. These parameters then skew the results for those dinosaurs with those move-sets. Some of the other factors we consider include player behavior, the meta of the update and our of course we acknowledge our own bias - in terms of our own experiences and preferences - when it comes to creating the list.

Personally, I believe (in 1.9 meta and 1.8 for that matter) Erlikospix was High Apex so I’ll see if I can find someone who support the Tyrant vote, though keep in mind this last list was based on 1.9 meta. Feel free to come on over to the Discord as well and ask.

Have a lovely day!

3 Likes

Hey xescot!

So I want to give this a full response as I think it’s entirely fascinating and we deliberated over the subject a lot.

One of the areas the sim results tends to fail us is when considering an actual match (3v3) instead of just a single matchup (1v1). Things with bleed tend to lose or tie, at the expense of doing a large amount of damage to the opposing creature and – frankly – sacrificing itself.

Look at a situation like this. You enter a battle with Erlikospys vs Trykosaurus (a matchup that Erlik loses 1v1 like 90% of the time). You Lethal Wound T1, and are either distracted or take a big bite. Then you swap in a Monostegotops for a stun, another tick of damage, and likely remove Trykosaurus’ option to rampage. The sim – it can’t simulate this on 1v1 matchups alone. All it can do is simulate two dinosaurs in a locked in battle until there’s a winner.

Let’s look at the opposite situation.

Say we have a dinosaur that wins EVERY SINGLE 1v1 matchup in the game. All of them. But it’s slow, and always ends up with not a lot of health left – having burned all its big moves, and can barely scratch the next dino in (if at all). This dino would do INCREDIBLE in the sims, but that doesn’t make it tyrant either. Because we’re not playing a 1v1 game. We’re playing 3v3. And something like this is going to be prone to setup by stuff like Tryostronix, or Dilorachierus, or Thor. So if you lead this dino, people will sacrifice one dino in order to bring in a perfect setup dino that can crush the next 2 and win. And if you close with this dino, people will still swap to a 4th dino just before death after the best moves are used up and win the match.

The point is, being excellent in 1v1 is an indication that a dino is excellent for sure. But how we have always done our tier lists is like this –

We all (usually 20 people from GamePress and from other competitive alliances) blind vote on 200 dinos to see where we all think they belong about a week or two after playing tons of arena matches (and lots of friendlies). Then we look at every creature we disagreed on (anything that didn’t get an 80% vote in favor of a tier) and we argue about them for another week. Then we allow each person to veto anything that they believe is wrong – let them present their case and deliberate again. And after all that – then we bring in the sim results and look for instances where the 1v1 matches seem to disagree.

I then build a comparison with the new tiers – considering every dino versus every other dino from sim results, and see how close we are to a threshold. In an ideal world, if we hit a dino right, it SHOULD beat around 50% of the tier it’s in, and rise from there below it. If it beats less than half of the tier it’s in, we need a decent explanation as to why (like Erlikospyx being one of the best supplimental dinos in the game because it forces actions with lethal wound, can’t be slowed, and can ensure a trade occurs with something like Thor/Tryko – or force a swap).

It would be far easier to build the tier list off the sims entirely. I’d have the tiers ready a day or two after the new patch. But 1v1 sims are only a part of the full equation.

I hope this helps!

7 Likes

Brian spyx debilitating distracts, then lethal wounds tryko…

1 Like

:upside_down_face: Just an example. Wasn’t saying LW T1 is an optimal move – :wink:

Thanks for the explanation. It really helps.

I suppose that my problem with Erlikospyx (after creating it with great enthusiasm and uploading it to 27 with a large number of boost I had to take it out of the team because it didn’t help me at all) is that it is not accompanied by the creatures it needs. I don’t have the damn goat (I refused to create it), I don’t have monostegotops either (because when I had to choose between the monomimus branch and the monostegotops branch I chose the first one) and, in general, I also don’t have any dinosaur to make the change, except , in a way, the dioraja. As an additional problem, boosted goats could and can kill him on the way out so he could not use it as a starting dino (the damn goat still delimits the game more than any other creature). It is obvious that he will be out of the team and I don’t know if forever, but it’s a shame to have a good Tyrant and I can’t use it.

Anyway, I see an additional generic problem and not only in my case. I think that Ludia exceeded herself by giving immunities. I still don’t know why Geminititan added as immune. Assuming that in the Tops teams most people use geminititan, Ardentis Máxima, Magna, Erly and in many cases Yoshi utilities such as bleeding are becoming less and less useful. Worse is the case of speed reductions, distraction and stuns (I think of you, my dear diloro, which I hope one day will be useful again). It is sad that some creatures base their power on distractions, stuns and speed changes always have in front of creatures that can not be distracted (all the immune more indoraptor, indoraptor gen2, Quetzorion that is, almost all top dinos), can not be stunned (all immune plus the two indoraptors, smilonemis, tuoramoloc, … that is also almost all top dinos) nor be reduced speed (Erlikospyx).

I signed up at the beginning but I had trouble following the order of the messages. One of these days I go back there :slight_smile:

1 Like

Dude you literally said erlik loses 90% of the time… so are you saying you yourself dont make the optimal outcome or you simply just dont know how the matchups work?

At even levels, Erlikospyx wins 2% of the time versus Tryko. :wink: I should’ve said 98%. You’re right.

At equal levels tryko wins 0% of the time. Spyx literally cant lose this matchup…

1 Like

ooh. that sounds fun! I’ll write an article on it! :smiley:

Unless of course you dont go for distraction turn 1. Then you do lose… which is really just a dumb decision…

Tryko even loses with a setup turn… :thinking:

Hey it’s a great opportunity for me to look at the decision trees from the sim and write something up to help the community! :slight_smile:

I like the sims… just enjoy numbers really. But people definitely need to know that not all the matchups on there is correct. For example, spyx and tryko. Spyx loses basically every setup that doesnt involve going distraction turn 1. That being said why on earth would you not go for distraction turn 1… just like spyx vs proceratho. Why would you not go for mss turn 1 and retain priority which is needed to win that matchup. Pr proceratho mimus vs nemesis. Nemesis only wins If you dont consistantly Instant Distract / Evasive stance. And straight up go for null strike when it’s not really needed in the matchup all but 1 time.

1 Like

You know, I misspoke. Sim says Spyx wins 2% and TIES 97%. Oops. That was user error. :slight_smile: Still might make a good article – “How to ensure a trade if locked in a battle as the tryko user vs Spyx”

1 Like

Doesn’t Smilonemys have Precise Pounce that hits through cloak and evasive? Or are you saying you shouldn’t go distract/evasive against it?

Oh and that matchup of Smilonemys vs Proceratho was one i was looking at today. It actually is right. I’ll be doing an article on that one to help out too since there’s a misconception that Proceratho should win when there’s no way it should. It loses 100%

Proceratho doesn’t need to dodge the turn it has precise pounce. Instant distract is all that’s needed. That or distracting rampage. You can easily get around shielded strike while stalling out with instant distract and evasive moves. I’ve ran this matchup in actual friendlies 49 times so far.

Nemesis has only beaten proceratho once. And that’s only because I got cute with proceratho. The closest it got was 430 hp remaining