Ludia Forums

The Great Arena Revamp!

Opening disclaimer: some of these suggestions have been made long before this post, and what’s contained in here is a mix of my understanding of these suggestions, along with my own personal tweaks on ideas. Will edit as ideas get debated and fleshed out.

TL;DR Add maximum level and boost caps to arena locations in the vein of raids, make trophy progression dynamic rather than static and linear, and increase/expand rewards to encourage competition. Discussion welcome, but please read the details below before posting.

Post Starting!

Threads like these would not come up in their frequency if Arenas were fine as is, and something needs to change because things are not fine. From a player standpoint they need to change to be more fair to myself, my opponents, and all those that share their enjoyment of the game as broadly as possible. From a business standpoint the changes need to keep the current players happy, invite new players, add incentive to increase profit, and do as little work as possible to achieve all three. Fortunately, Ludia has already laid the proper foundation for the changes that need to be made so while the Arena changes proposed below would substantially alter our current experience, it would still be extremely recognizable to us at the same time.

The largest and most significant change would be a new maximum level and boost cap to arenas. Implemented precisely the same manner as raids, a creature with a level higher than the set maximum would have its stats reduced to the level set by the arena. If it has boosts, its boosted would also be proportionally reduced. None of these reductions are permanent, and only affect the current battle. Note that there is only a maximum cap; there is no minimum level for any arenas in this proposal. You are free to battle as underleveled as it suits you!

The second significant change would be the progression. Instead of awarding and subtracting a set number of trophies, the match would award a range of trophies between 1 and 30, with the closer battles awarding fewer and the more distinct victories awarding more, balanced against an average power level of the team that participated (note: not the average of the 8 total available dinosaurs). This would reward and advance players with more powerful teams overall to meet those that would be at their level faster, while teams not yet prepared for that level of opposition would have more time to battle against those closer to their expertise and ability. Each arena will have a trophy cap in addition to the level/boost cap mentioned above; much like right now, exceeding the trophy cap for an arena will unlock and progress the player to the next arena in line (more on that below). Each arena award an incubator value and coin reward per victory scaling upward as one progresses in the arena; the higher the arena, the greater the coin reward and the more expansive the DNA amount in the incubator.

The third, and most complicated but needed change, would be matchmaking. As each Arena would now have a maximum level and boost cap, matchmaking would take on a relatively simple position; anyone within an arena would have the potential to face anyone else in that arena, with the exception of the final arena. For example, all players using a team in Sorna Marshes will only face players using a team selected for Sorna Marshes, but any and all available Sorna Marshes players will be in the opponent selection pool regardless of trophy or power level. Seems rather simple, right?

Well, here’s where it gets more complicated. As a player progresses, they unlock arenas moving up. Just like in tournaments, the game will save the team a player used in the arena they are leaving and that team can be modified as the player sees fit from the Collection page with a new Arena tab. Each Arena, once unlocked, will have its own section a player can then create a team for*. The arena is changed by clicking on the current arena icon on the Battle page and scrolling up or down to change the “active” arena that the Battle button will automatically search for opponents in. Arenas will only award the prizes specific to that arena, and choosing to battle in a lower arena than the most advanced arena player is rated for will award and subtract no trophies. Only the most advanced arena a player has unlocked will award or subtract trophies from them. Just like now, losing enough trophies will drop the player to a previous arena, locking them out of the higher one(s) but saving their last played team in the Collections → Arena tab. This will eliminate the need for “droppers” as they only need to select the arena they would like to play in, edit their team which will already have a mandatory level and boost cap, and their progress would not compete with those making an honest push forward at higher arena ratings. It would also allow more advanced players to continue to access arena-specific DNA rewards.
*creatures whose creation levels are higher than the arena maximum will not be allowed on the team. I.e., a Legendary dinosaur will not be allowed in an arena with a maximum level of 15 or lower.

On the battle page, there will also be a toggle, name TBD; this toggle will allow a player to give consent to find any available player in any arena if they cannot find an opponent in their most-progressed arena within 30 seconds. When an opponent is found, the player will be given the team saved in Collections → Arena that corresponds to the opponent’s arena. The player WILL gain and lose trophies in this mode, even when using a lower arena team, and they will gain the awards of their most-progressed arena as compensation for the fact that the game did try to accommodate their desire to play in that arena. the opponent will gain and lose trophies and awards as if they were fighting a player of their arena’s rank and power, since that’s effectively what they will be facing. This allows players in higher brackets to continue progressing if they so choose, while not having to wait forever for a match, and eliminating the need for AI as much as possible.

If two players toggle the ability to be matched in any arena are pitted against each other, the game will choose the most advanced arena both have unlocked and select the premade teams both player and opponent have set up. Both will be eligible for the rewards of their most-progressed arena.

(Trust me, it’s a lot more complicated on paper than it would be to play)

Finally, at Nublar Shores, the matchmaker has a tweak back to what we should have: a requirement to search for an opponent with as close a trophy count to the player, expanding to larger and larger margins until an opponent is found. Notably, if the toggle to find any arena is selected, any trophy gains for Nublar Shores when not fighting in Nublar Shores, is cut to one-half (or maybe one-third, needs testing). This, plus the rewards to be found in Nublar Shores alone, should encourage Nublar Shores players to attempt to connect with other NS players and keep the toggle off, ensuring end-game players have an appropriate pool of players to face and collect full rewards.

Arena Summaries:

Fallen Kingdom |60 Trophies to enter|
—Level cap 6, no boosts allowed, Common and Rare creatures
MT Sibo |500 Trophies to enter|
—Level cap 8, no boosts allowed, Common and Rare creatures
S.S. Arcadia |1000 Trophies to enter|
—Level cap 10, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Nublar Jungle |1500 Trophies to enter|
—Level cap 12, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Badlands |2000 Trophies to enter|
— Level cap 14, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Lockdown |2500 Trophies to enter|
— Level cap 16, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Sorna Marshes |3000 Trophies to enter|
— Level cap 18, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Jurassic Ruins |3500 Trophies to enter|
— level cap 20, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Lockwood Estate |4000 Trophies to enter|
— level cap 22, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
Aviary |4500 Trophies to enter|
— level cap 24, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available (with stats reduced to cap)
------ Minimal chance to earn emotes in incubators
Lockwood Library |5000 Trophies to enter|
— Level cap 26, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available
------ Low chance to earn emotes in incubators
Gyrosphere Depot |5500 Trophies to enter|
— Level cap 28, boosts restricted to participating dinosaur adjusted level, All Rarities available
------ Low chance to earn emotes in incubators, minimal chance to earn vanity skins for any of the creatures with hybrids being extremely rare*
Nublar Shores |6000 Trophies to enter|
— No level cap, no boost restriction, All Rarities available
------ Small chance to earn emotes in incubators, low chance to earn vanity skins for any of the creatures with hybrids being extremely rare*

*I imagine reskins and colour variants of dinosaurs will be both easier to implement as neat new toys than fully-fledged dinosaur rewards, while still being prestigious enough to be worth the trouble of climbing the ladder. Also, how cool would it be to take a jaunt back to previous arenas, fighting fairly BUT your T-Rex is now the colour of a macaw and has feathers? Or your Parasaurolophus has a swamp-camo scheme? Maybe enter the next tournament with wildly colourful versions of what your opponents have, or an all-black-stealth-looking team outfit? Anyway, something to flesh out in another thread.

Conclusion

Changes here would alleviate the following problems at least in some way voiced on the forums:

  • Poor matchmaking
  • Droppers
  • Exploited arena mechanics via grossly mismatched team levels
  • Lack of competition
  • Lack of available opponents
  • Lack of drive to improve
  • Feeling of being “stuck” at a particular arena
  • Allow an avenue to explore and experiment with other creatures that haven’t been as developed as main team members
  • Enjoy PvP without the competitive edge from time to time
  • Enjoy PvP competitively even when a lot of the players aren’t interested in joining you at your higher level
  • Make wins and losses meaningful with varying trophies so strategy and tactics matter once again

Changes here would not have any effect on the following:

  • Dinosaur mechanics (no nerfs mentioned in this thread, so please let’s keep it that way!)
  • Boosts (the cap should be more than sufficient for the purposes of an arena mechanics rework to bother touching on it here; let’s discuss the finer points of boosts elsewhere, please!)
  • Taking anything away from anyone, so that people that worked hard for their positions maintain their work (and, if you include the vanity skins idea, get an even bigger bonus than those that don’t put in the time/effort/money)

If someone has the numbers for coin rewards at each arena level, feel free to post and I can add it in.
If anyone requires clarification of an idea, please ask and I or one of the many others browsing this forum with similar ideas I’m sure would be happy to expand on it.
If I’ve made a gross miscalculation, also please post it - but explain it in detail so I understand why you think it won’t work.

Thanks!

19 Likes

nice, i made one toom but i suggest chaning some of the level restrictions. ive just been kicked out of aviary cuz i have a level 25 indom with 25 boosts, but the next highest level is a 23 magna and next boosted thing is a 15 hp boosted 21 gemeni

Thanks for replying Colin! I was hoping you’d see this post.

So the way this is laid out, if you got the trophies to ascend to the Aviary, you would be able to compete with anyone else also in the Aviary up to level 24. Your Indominus Rex would be reduced to 24 with the appropriate boosts, and the rest of your stated team, the 23 Magna and the 21 Gemini, would remain unadjusted. Now, your Indominus Rex at 24 with all those boosts will still be among the most powerful creatures any opponent can encounter, considering they, too, are limited to 24.

If you were to progress in trophy count to ascend to Library from there, assuming none of your creatures increase in level, your Indominus Rex would again return to level 25 with its full boosts. Your opponents could reach level 26 and thus outlevel you, but only by the one level, keeping your Indominus competitive.

Your other creatures would remain unaffected, and you could battle your opponents in the Library with a 25 Indominus, 23 Magna, and 21 Gemini at your pleasure.

So these changes ensure that in the Aviary you would never be grossly outleveled, and even with the odds technically against you in the arena(s) above you would still be at a competitive difference going up, rather than facing odds that were numerically impossible to beat.

None of your creatures would be “kicked out” of any arena they couldn’t already enter. :slight_smile:

3 Likes

I like the general premise but the details don’t stick well with me. A lot of interesting matchups in the game come from people having team variance of about +/- 3 boosts and levels. However, arena caps should more be an absolute limit meant to block droppers and whale teams from running around ruining people’s enjoyment of the game rather than “rules of play”. Ie you could lump the first few arenas together with a cap of, say, level 10 (since getting things to level 10 is absurdly easy), then add epics (to 15), legendaries (20 cap), uniques (25) and open it up around lockwood (where most teams are between 24 and 30 anyway). Boosts can be added more finely…or not depending on how quickly people are able to get them. The point is that by being too strict per arena you pigeon hole people into the skill tournament mindset of “I need optimal” rather than saying “This is a weaker choice but it’s easier to level up so I’m using it instead to fill X creature’s niche”. Ideally very few people hit the cap while progressing, yet it’s there to make sure the “worst matchup” they have isn’t wildly unfair. Make sense?

2 Likes

Thanks for the input Shifter!

So just to be clear, my reply to Colin would seem to me to be similar to your own situation. Without a minimum level, you can still have greater variance of levels for some wild battles, but you would be precluded from having grossly overwhelming odds against you due to the maximum cap. As creatures within a certain rarity are far and away unequal to the other, keeping them in a bracket as wide as 5 levels is still in the “overwhelming” camp from start of the bracket to the end. Narrowing the brackets as above keeps the arenas relevant, keeps the matches from running away from the competitors, and allows for more team variety as not everyone needs “the best” creature for its rarity to make any headway. In that way it’s quite the opposite of “I need optimal.” At least, as far from it as we can get without making fundamental changes to the game that I don’t believe the devs would be willing to make.

I hope I explained that correctly. Your thoughts?

Edit: Oh, and the variable trophy gains are specifically designed to slow people down appropriately. the ones that gain more trophies faster are the ones best prepared to move up, while those not yet prepared will be staggered to a level more appropriate to their teams’ power levels. That way people may hit their cap properly while levelling, and if not perfectly then at least by a wide margin better than what we currently have.

yes, i really like your version better than mine now cuz i can’t just get destroyed and each arena I pass, it should be leveled by then.

@Shifter, i dont think droppers are a problem cuz no one is alloed to even have legendaries until sorna marshed or uniques until lockwood estate.

1 Like

Honestly, don’t see a lot of positive changes. Maximum caps won’t make battles better, as there are no minimum caps. This means players that barely unlock new arena will still get destroyer by 3-4 lvls higher teams. Depends too, how boosts will be deducted. It matters if Thor is 133 or 145 speed.

You need to keep in mind differences in lvling and evolving creatures. So some players have big lvl differences in team.

Proposed rewards to be exclusive to certain arena will encourage dropping. Rewards are not motivating for end game players. Personally don’t care about emotes and some cosmetics (skins) without any effects on cretures performance.

Disqualifying Apexes from arenas that have lower max lvl limit than 26 is nonsense. People raid to unlock and use these creatures, not only to collect them.

Battling would be even worse. More 3-0 sweep outs even in battles of equal lvl teams. Class system in current state is worse than boosts. Now many players can see problem in matchmaking, cause of teams lvl differences. Losing agaist same lvl team 3-0 without any chances (differently boosted cretures, drawing wrong team…) will make battling even less desirable.

Idea is nice, but can’t see it working. For better matchmaking game need way more players.

I mean the proposed solution (in whatever form it takes) needs to address droppers and whale teams, because they are the worst offenders of violating arena progression and “fun” matches. You should lose if you are in an arena that has creatures above yours and you’re “under progressed”, and it can be awful. This way you’re encouraged to progress up to the cap of your arena “in safety” until you’re ready to go back and claw your way up the next one. Rewards should linearly increase with arena challenge (“harder” arenas grant more than “easier” arenas). There should be multiple unlocked arenas (as described above, apex creatures warrant multiple arenas they can be used in), and I would honestly even prefer to see lower level rarity unlocked arenas as well if those were possible (which we don’t know). The goal of this (imo) is to gate progress into tiers that prevent people from high ranks from trolling low level players and prevent whale users from stomping people for fun. Other than that, players should feel free within fairly wide borders to build variable teams based on the dna, coins, and creatures they want/can make use of. The thing I’m most interested in about your system is that trophies are awarded based on the 4 creatures picked rather than 8…which seems really nice. Basically if your 4 were all lower level and boosts you lose less…in short a “stack” is treated as such, and both players move less on the rank system. I think that it would be a bit much to change other features, since we don’t want people to rocket through the system or be held back from progressing based on skill or team composition (again unless they are in wildly uneven matches).

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Max caps would in essence be from the max of the previous arena to the max of the next one. If you’re a skilled battler with a great team and get there with less, you have tougher battles, which is acceptable. Basic matchmaking also tries to match you with someone in your “range” rather than at the opposite end of your arena, but yes such matches may happen. The goal is to soften the blow rather than see truly awful mismatches of team strengths. Agree that rewards should only increase with arena, there should never be a reason to go back to a low arena for a reward. Limiting boosts and levels makes a massive difference because it forces Ludia to balance things in relationship with each other instead of by our current PvP standards, where many players supplement bad team composition with overleveling and boosting to extreme degrees…and often never progress at other player’s expense

2 Likes

Thanks for your input! I’d like to discuss this further.

I disagree, as the fundamental problem with with matchmaking right now is the vast difference in level and power between players. Enforcing a cap so that people have a more competitive series of battles to promote progression not only teaches players what their teams strengths and weaknesses are, but it allows them the opportunity to progress at their proper place. Nobody learns anything by being crushed by a Thor 6-10 levels higher than them, and they certainly don’t feel like progressing much when that’s frequent enough an occurrence to be considered normal.

If they currently have big level differences in their teams now, they will still have those team level differences in this proposed solution - except that their opponents will be more likely to be at the power of their highest creature, rather than much higher still. Can’t see that as anything but an improvement, personally.

This is the current situation we have; droppers primarily go down to lower levels for easy incubators in general, but with arena-exclusive DNA rewards droppers after a particular creature will come down to stock up as much as possible. With the proposed changes, they can do that - but they have to fight on equal terms with those populating that arena, making it fair (and, dare I say, more fun) for both parties involved. Better still, they can do this without losing their progression but also not gaining it unless they continue to participate at their highest arena again. By allowing people to choose their previously-unlocked arenas while enforcing the rules, you not only eliminate the “dropper” as it exists entirely, but you also deal with the ones that would bank everything on one or two godly-by-comparison creatures by artificially reducing their levels to those more appropriate to the arena. Compared to what we have in place now, it’s a world of difference, and all for the better unless you’re seeing something I’m not.

I’m afraid I don’t follow you on this one. Apexes are unlocked at level 26; presumably they’re supposed to be particularly powerful enough to warrant that level start. Are you suggesting you want to deliberately go down in levels (to where up-and-coming players would no doubt be using especially-lower-level creatures) to show off your Apexes? By utterly ruining them with it? Because then yeah, I guess so, that’s kind of the entire point of changing the arena around to be more fair. In this proposal, Apexes would have three arenas to be used in; as end-game creatures, unless you want to suggest allowing them with lower stats themselves, then the intention is that they become usable at the end-game part of the arena. They are still fully usable in Strike towers and raids as well.

Worse than what we currently have? I’m sorry, I’ll need a better explanation than this. Either I’m not understanding you, or there’s something I explained poorly that you didn’t understand.

Which we will not get until (a) the game improves matchmaking, and/or (b) we implement the ability to have players choose multiple teams available as described above in case their chosen arena can’t find an appropriate match for them.

3 Likes

This won’t solve droppers problem, only encourage players to go back in lower arenas. Keep in mind that top players have fully boosted tournament teams. This mean that even if boosts are reduced to appropriate lvl, players that are rightfully in that arena will face fully boosted teams, while they have few or some boosts on their creatures. You might solved the problem of droppers moving up and down, but will still get easy incubators discouraging players that barely started playing.

That’s the problem. Anyone wants to unlock Apexes. You suggest that only 5000 players can use them. Players progress and lvls of required teams will rise in all arenas with time. That is unavoidable.

Matchmaking won’t improve without more players battling in arena. Every player that refuse to play arena makes matchmaking worse. In top 3 arenas are 5000 players approximately. Boosts enabled option that lower teams can climb way above their lvl. Tournaments over weekend makes everything worse, as there are even less players in arena.

Battling is a disaster since 2.0. It’s like playing poker or lottery. You get wrong hand and you can just close the game. Even on equal lvls you have zero chances to win. No skill can save you. Until they remove class system or finish changes, nothing will change. Whats the difference for players between losing to lvl 30 nitro Thor or lvl 26 nitro Thor 3-0?

I think the best point I’m seeing here is about apex creatures. I think level and boost caps matter more than rarity ones, except for the lowest arenas. This way someone with max boosts is unable to stomp on people but has a better chance to win than the average (which, given the superior team, makes sense). Alternatively you could only have this cap system in place for the lower arenas for levels (because it needs to exist to catch people who get one unique from an event on a team of 11-12 creatures), and instead be more aggressive about boost levels (ie nitro thors couldn’t exist until X arena because speed boosts would only let it hit, say, 121 or something). I fully disagree about 2.0 being bad, matchups are finally in favor of creature composition instead of level, so if you play your hand and force out certain creatures from your opponent, you can win with much lower levels and boosts (ie, through skill). Perfect? Far from it. But 2.0 was a very nice improvement to the game’s systems, it just needs to have the addition of a cap system to protect new players from endgame ones.

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I’m afraid that I don’t know how to explain it any further to you, but reduced boosted creatures in lower arenas is FAR more fair than what we have now, and even gives the chance of winning for lower levels where before there was none.

The proposed solution also gives people the opportunity to play what they want at the level it was appropriate at and shift back to competitive without having to consign themselves to a particular playstyle. Myself, for example, I might be able to play my uniques again and try for a trophy count (adding my battles to the 4500-5000 player pool for matchmaking again) while going back to the 2500-3000 trophy range for half my battles because that’s where my favourite creatures are most competitive.

As for Apexes, I can only assume from your response that I was right and you want to use an extra-powerful creature against low-level creatures, and I’m diametrically opposed to this idea. I assume from the posts that came before mine that a lot of the forum and likely a lot of the playerbase in general leans toward fairer battles than for allowing Apexes to run anywhere.

I think you might do well to visit lower-level arenas again because this is simply not true. I don’t know if you’re saying this to be dramatic, but anywhere from 1000 to 4500 I win often or I have close games which were enjoyable and had the potential for a win, and that’s what competition should be like.

I do wonder how rarity reductions would work.

If Apexes could be introduced at the same time as uniques, since I’m reading many uniques are comparable to Apexes, there would be more of a chance to show them off. They would have to have their stats (and boosts, if they have any) reduced appropriately to make it fair; the entire idea is that nobody should have an instant-win team at whatever their arena bracket, and there should always be the potential for either party to compete effectively in each battle.

Edit: In fact, I don’t see including them at 21 as a bad thing at all, since there’s a lot of plays and power that begin to appear right then. I’ll edit the arena list to include rarities.

This is simply awesome. I would have some minor changes to balancing of level cap etc, but I love the concept and idea. Awesome post :slightly_smiling_face:

1 Like

I would love to hear your changes :slight_smile: The more collaborative this is, the more it’ll be a community project and hopefully implemented in some way!

1 Like

Ok here are my changes…

First Arena
Max LvL: 10, Max boosts: 0

Second Arena
Max LvL: 15, Max boosts: 0

Third Arena
Max LvL: 15, Max boosts: 0

Fourth Arena
Max LvL: 17 (now legendaries can be spotted in the arena), Max boosts 4

Fifth Arena
Max LvL: 18, Max boosts: 4

sixth Arena
Max LvL: 18, Max boosts: 6

Seventh Arena
Max LvL: 20, Max boosts: 6

Eighth Arena
Max LvL: 22, Max boosts: 10

Ninth Arena
Max LvL: 23, Max boosts: 10

Tenth Arena
Max LvL: 23, Max boosts: 12

Eleventh Arena
Max LvL: 24, Max boosts: 14

Twelfth Arena
Max LvL 26, Max boosts: 17

Thirteenth Arena
Max LvL: 28, Max boosts: 20

Endless Arena (unlocked at 7000+ trophies)
Max LvL: 30, Max boosts: 30

Interesting choices. So several of the arenas in your edit would have the same level requirements (second and third arena appear to be identical), and fifth/sixth, ninth/tenth would have the same level restriction and only adjust boosts marginally? Is that to focus more on the trophy count itself, or did you have a different reason for that?

As to encountering boosts later down the line, I would love to see boosts appear as a more “advanced” feature than as soon as they do! :slight_smile: I went with level 10 for the first boosts so that there was less confusion for new players (Ludia allows Player level 10 to begin using boosts, so it made sense to me to begin allowing it on creature level 10 as well - but few at a time). Moving them further down the line could give new players a little more breathing room before it hits; I’d like to hear more opinions on this.

Curious to read your reasoning behind the level brackets you’ve selected :smiley:

I selected the LvL restrictions simply as a way to stop droppers while letting users that are progressing in that arena to use there best creatures. (I have done a analysis on this with my alliance, so I do relatively know what the average level per creature is in the desired arena)

I selected my boosts because people start obtaining boosts normally when they hit 2000+ trophies. That’s why I want to give them the opportunity to use them while not letting them make hyper boosted monsters.

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However I didn’t take along time in designing my draft of it, so I probably could make some changes to my own structured one.