Ludia Forums

Trying to Fix the Biggest Issue in JW:A

It’s the Class system. This thing is… how you say… doo-doo.

This has been done many times before, I am well aware. That being said, I will try my hand at this monumental task. These kinds of changes I would expect to see in something like a 3.0 update, if at all.

Please note that I’ve spent probably way too much time in the Battle Simulator. I have tested most of these guys extensively, although others got notably less testing.

Additionally, this is meant to be from a primarily arena perspective. If my changes screw with raids, my apologies, but I’m focusing on mostly the arena, since that’s where the class issue is most egregious.

So! Let’s get into the meat and bones of this thing:

Issues

Issues:

I’ll just try and outline what is wrong here. You want to know what’s wrong? It’s that Resilient Creatures just have access to way too much stuff. It’s the equivalent of Green in Magic: The Gathering. In other words, too much.

Lemme go over everything Resilients have access to (this is from pure resilients):

  • Dodge/Cloak Breaking
  • Dodge/Cloak Bypassing
  • Deceleration
  • Cleansing (Notably Distraction)
  • Ferocity ([Revenge] Instant Ferocity, Persistent Ferocious Strike)
  • Vulnerability
  • Shields
  • Invincibility
  • Distraction (Carbotoceratops)
  • Stuns
  • Speed Increase
  • Priority
  • Taunt
  • Healing
  • 3x Damage Multipliers (the Unholy Abomination known as Devastation)
  • Armor Piercing (S-I Stunning Strike, or the bane of everyone’s existence)

That is an extremely long list. Way longer than it should be. As for what really should not be on the list:

  • Distraction (Cunning)
  • Speed Increases (Cunning)
  • Priority (Cunning, mostly, although I can let this one slide on account of it being mainly Instant Charge and Dig In)
  • 3x multipliers (Really should be Fierce, although I would honestly prefer that this didn’t exist to begin with)
  • Vulnerability (Again, really should be Fierce from a flavor perspective.)
  • Ferocity (Fierce)
  • Armor Piercing (Fierce)

So, why are these available to Resilients? It’s because there are just way too many Pure Resilient Creatures. There are 86 pure Resilients, compared to 49 Fierce and 63 Cunnings. There’s almost twice as many Resilients than Fierce creatures. Which is just ridiculous.

The other issue is a lack of genuinely good Pure Fierce creatures. This gives us more counters for Resilients while giving Cunning creatures more stuff to counter, so it’s all in all a win-win.

And I’m not talking about Cleansing Fierce doods. No. I’m bringing up the big Chompers of old. More stuff like Thor, really. And Baryonyx (but actually good).

How to Fix things

How to Fix Things:

  1. Shift around the Selective Cleansing

One thing you might notice is that the Resilient Suite’s Cleansing effect comes in handy far more often than the Fierce Suite or the Cunning Suite.

Cleansing Distraction is just ridiculously useful, and so much more so than cleansing Vulnerable or DoT, both of which have zero presence outside of a select few niches.

This is where I suggest my first set of Changes:

  • Resilient Suite

Not much changes here, aside from each move losing it’s ability to Nullify Speed Increases.

  • Fierce Suite

As it really should have been from the beginning, these moves now cleanse Deceleration. Again, this really should have been the starting point.

  • Cunning Suite

Instead of cleansing DoT, the Cunning Suite of moves now cleanses Vulnerable. Why? Because of a reason I’ll get into shortly.

  1. Screw with the Debuff application.

Right, so, I mentioned above that I would get to why the Cunning Suite now cleanses Vulnerable. It’s because the Fierce Class now deals heavily in the debuff.

Vulnerability Impact/Strike would definitely be present as a way to increase the Damage Output of Fierce Creatures, since that’s really what these guys are all about.

You have the Fast and Furious like Baryonyx (I’m sorry), the Slow Stat Sticks like Tyrannosaurus, and now the Moderate Pressure Pointers, like Zhuchengtyrannus.

Cunning Creatures deal with all three by Cleansing, Distracting and Nullifying, which is definitely a good thing for them.

  1. Reworking more Broken Moves

In both negative and positive connotations. Namely the S-I Stunning moves.

*S-I Stunning Strike

It loses its armor-piercing and some stun chance. Already this move is pretty bad, mostly due to the piercing part, but the stun chance being so high on a move that already deals damage is a bit frightening.

We already learned from Dracocera that an S-I attack based on damage can get very out of hand.

  • S-I Stun

I just buffed the chance to 100% on this move. Given that literally everything is at least resistant to stun (most viable things, anyways), the extra boost in stun chance shouldn’t be too bad.

New Moves

There are a couple of inconsistencies between the words typed and the screenshot. Just know that the stuff I’ve actually typed out is the correct version. The Screenshots are just there for… reasons, I guess.

  • Offensive Stance

Priority

Self: Increase damage by 50% for 2 turns, 1 attack. Increase Critical Chance by 30% for 2 turns, 1 attack. Increase Speed by 10% for 1 turn.

  • Devour

Highest HP: Impose Vulnerability by 50% for 2 turns, 2 attacks. Break shields. Bypass Armor. Attack 2x.

Self: Heal 1x

Delay: 1; Cooldown: 3

  • Group Revitalization

Priority

Team: Heal 2x. Cleanse all Negative Effects. Shield 500% for 2 turns, 2 attacks.

Delay: 1; Delay: 3

  • Stampede

All Opponents: Attack 1.5. Remove Dodge. Bypass Cloak. Reduce Damage by 50% for 2 turns, 4 attacks. 75% chance to Stun for 1 turn.

Delay: 1; Cooldown: 3

  • Venomous Blast

Priority

All Opponents: Reduce Damage by 100% for 1 turn, 4 attacks. 100% chance to Stun for 1 turn. Reduce Crit chance by 100% for 1 turn, 4 attacks. Nullify all positive effects. Attack 1x.

  • Courageous Roar

Team: Increase damage by 50% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Crit Chance by 30% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Speed by 10% for 3 turns. Cleanse all Negative effects.

Highest HP: Attack 1x.

Delay: 1; Cooldown: 3

  • Display of Strength

Priority

Team: Increase Damage by 50% for 2 turns, 4 attacks. Cleanse Distraction. Cleanse Critical Chance Reduction.

All Opponents: Impose Vulnerability by 50% for 2 turns, 4 attacks.

Cooldown: 2

  • Revenge Cautious Impact

Self: Increase Speed by 10% for 1 turn. 75% chance to dodge by 66.7% of damage for 1 turn, 1 attack.

Highest Damage: Reduce Damage by 50% for 2 turns, 4 attacks. Precise attack 1.5x.

On Revenge

Self: Increase Speed by 30% for 1 turn. 75% chance to dodge 66.7% of damage for 1 turn, 2 attacks. Cleanse all Negative Effects.

Highest Damage: Reduce Damage by 50% for 2 turns, 4 attacks. Precise attack 1.5x.

  • Instant Shattering Impact

Priority

Self: Cleanse Deceleration

Lowest HP: Remove Taunt. Break Shields. Bypass Armor. Attack 1.5x

  • Swap In Fury

Secure: Self: Increase Damage by 50% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Crit Chance by 30% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Speed by 10% for 3 turns.

Threatened (33.3% HP or less): Self: Increase Damage by 75% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Crit Chance by 30% for 3 turns, 3 attacks. Increase Speed by 30% for 3 turns.

  • Wounding Shock

Highest HP: DoT 33.4% of target’s max HP for 3 turns. Impose Vulnerability by 50% for 3 turns, 6 attacks. Break Shields. Attack 1x

Cooldown: 3

  • Vulnerable Shattering Strike

Highest HP: Bypass Armor. Break Shields. Impose Vulnerability for 2 turns, 2 attacks.

  • On Escape Evasive Impact

Self: 75% chance to dodge 66.7% of damage for 2 turns, 3 attacks.

Escapee: Attack 1.5x.

New Creatures

Zhuchengtyrannus:

Zhucheng here is meant to represent the first of my Weak-Spot Subclass creatures, as shown by the presence of Vulnerability Strike. That, coupled with FR, makes Zhucheng a pretty frightening damage dealer.

Ostafrikasaurus:

Frikasaurus here is meant to be Ferocity kicked up a few notches. It’s got the wonderful FI into FR, with a new move called Offensive Stance to make up for its lack of a basic attack.

Ceratosaurus:

A Vulnerability-Inflicting medium theropod, Ceratosaurus is meant to sit there, lower your opponent’s defenses and then break through them before inevitably dying in the process.

Alioramus:

Alioramus is meant to be a Diet Zhuchengtyrannus, and I think it works well enough in that regard. I was a bit iffy on the Instant Shattering Impact, but I caved in towards the end.

Carcharodontosaurus:

This guy is meant to be a more tanky variant of the Bleeder build that’s usually seen in Spinosaurus and other such creatures. I was initially debating on putting ISI on this guy but decided against it.

Mapusaurus:

Mapusaurus is the Fierce Class’ premier option for screwing over Flocks, even though most are cunning and deal in Distraction. That being said, we do still have a massive attack stat to at least somewhat pad that out.

Oxalaia:

A Common Spinosaurid. What else do you want me to say? Maiming Wound is fun to yeet in, though, as well as S-I Wound.

Torvosaurus:

Pretty much just the basic Exploiter Theropod build, albeit with some boosted stats to make up for its lack of moves and resistances.

Macello Ferox:

And now for MF, the new Apex Fierce that I’m proposing. This is meant to be like the culmination of each Fierce Subclass, being a Stat Stick with the damage boosting and defense lowering capabilities of its contemporaries.

Ideally this would be a good raid creature with all the ferocity and vulnerability, though I’m not sure on that. As a raid boss itself, I would honestly prefer that it replaces Haast Maximus. As of Update 2.9, there are four Cunning Bosses compared to two Resilient and 1 Fierce. We do not need more Cunning Creatures, especially since HM is really just a Diet Warbat.

New Hybrids

Irrilaia:

Hybridized from Oxalaia and Irri G2, Irrilaia is meant to be a Ferocious Bleeder of sorts, with the wounding and ferocity of its parents, backed up by decent stats.

Mapuramus:

Meant to be a combination of Alio’s speed and Mapu’s un-targeted moves, Mapuramus has the averaged stats of both creatures with moves from each. Vulnerability Impact helps get in some much needed damage and ISI helps keep the illusion of speed without actually giving it the stat.

Frikistosaurus:

Ah, yes. The creature that I found slightly difficult to balance. I’ve been flip-flopping on its health and speed for ages now, and I’ve tanked its speed a bit to the low 120’s. Its health has also been set to what I think is an average of both.

Other than that, Frikisto is meant to be basically a violent chihuahua that actually has the strength to back itself up. This is mostly due to the massive amounts of Ferocity the dog has access to, in Ferocious Impact, Offensive Stance and Swap-In Fury.

Swap in Fury is also meant to be an improvement on Megisto’s gimmick, and Lord Almighty it can just absolutely wipe things off the face of the earth. Very fun to watch it just rip everything to shreds in the simulator.

Ceratator:

A hybrid of Cerato and Irri Gen 1, Ceratator is a combination of the ferocious and Exploiter subclasses of Fierce Creatures. Its stats aren’t what I would call stellar, but they serve their purpose as being things to boost with RTC and VI.

Diodontolacerta:

The main Resilient Hybrid I’m putting in, Diodont over here is meant to be more of a Raid creature than an arena one, given the heals, invincibility, shields and a counter. No armor, unlike its brother-in-arms (Rajakylo), but I think it at least somewhat makes up for it.

Allofrikis:

Allofrikis is really meant to be more of a side-grade to the Chihuahua rather than a proper upgrade. Using Allo G2 cost a ton of speed, but gave it a generally better moveset, stats and resistances.

This probably isn’t as menacing, however, since it lost such a massive amount of speed, even if it does have the ability to basically one-shot anything on a crit after setting up. Unless it’s against a Cunning creature.

image

Heracleosaur:

Because lord knows that Porky needs a hybrid. Heracles over here is meant to be a beeg chomper, with Mutual Fury to back it up in case things go south.

The VI is an insurance policy in case you need some Turn 1 damage against those big tanks.

Creature Changes

This is a list of each change I made to the creatures in this game. If something is not addressed, like a resistance, then it will remain the same. For instance: Creature X has an Immunity to Deceleration. I list it here and make changes to it but don’t address the Decel immunity, therefore, it still has it.

Acrocanthosaurus:

  • Health: 4600
  • Damage: 1500
  • Speed: 108
  • Group Cleansing Strike → Fierce Strike
  • Fierce Impact → Vulnerability Impact
  • Resistance to DoT: 50%
  • Resistance to Stun: 75%
  • Resistance to Swap Prevention: 50%

Allosaurus Gen 2:

  • Health: 4600
  • Damage: 1600
  • Speed: 107
  • Cleansing Shattering Strike → Vulnerable Shattering Strike
  • Resistance to DoT: 50%
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 0%
  • Resistance to Swap Prevention: 75%
  • Resistance to Vulnerable: 50%

Albertosaurus:

  • Killer Instinct → Instant Shattering Impact

Ardentsimaxima:

  • Armor: 10%

Brachiosaurus:

  • Speed: 105

Ceramagnus:

  • Class changed to Wild Card
  • Damage: 1250
  • Speed: 110
  • Armor: 20%
  • Crit: 15%
  • Resilient Strike → Definite Strike
  • Group Acceleration → Group Taunting Shields Impact
  • Acute Stun → Stampede
  • Precise Rampage → Resilient Impact
  • Resistance to Distraction: 50%
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 50%
  • Resistance to Swap Prevention: 50%

Compsocaulus:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Compsognathus:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Compsognathus Gen 2:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Dimodactylus:

  • Health: 3750
  • Damage: 1100
  • Speed: 129
  • Fierce Strike → Long Defense Strike
  • Short Defense → Ferocious Strike

Diplodocus:

  • Damage: 1200
  • Decelerating Rampage → Group Decelerating Rampage
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 100%

Dodo:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Dodocevia:

  • Class changed to Cunning
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Doedicurus:

  • Speed: 105

Edaphocevia:

  • Crit Chance: 20%
  • Defense Shattering Rampage → Fierce Rampage
  • Deceleration resistance: 50%
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Edaphosaurus:

  • Attack: 1100
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Entelolania:

  • Damage: 1200
  • Speed: 112
  • Crit: 15%
  • Armor: 35%

Entelomoth:

  • Attack: 1200
  • Crit: 15%

Erlidominus;

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 75%

Euoplocephalus:

  • Speed changed to 106

Geminititan:

  • Class changed to Cunning-Resilient
  • Resilient Strike → Cunning Strike

Gigaspikasaur/Giraffatitan:

  • Speed: 106

Gorgosaurus:

  • Speed: 108

Gorgosuchus:

  • Attack: 1400

Gorgotrebax:

  • Health: 4350
  • Attack: 1400
  • Speed: 120
  • Group Accelerate Cunning Strike cleanses Vulnerable instead of DoT.
  • Cautious Impact → Revenge Cautious Impact
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Hadros Lux:

  • Health: 5000
  • Speed: 107
  • Greater Emergency Heal → Group Revitilization
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 0%

Indominus Rex:

  • Speed; 109
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Indominus Rex Gen 2:

  • Attack: 1450
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Magnapyritor:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Mammotherium:

  • Health: 4200
  • Attack: 1200
  • Speed: 109

Mammolania:

  • Health: 4800
  • Attack: 1100
  • Speed: 109
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 50%

Megistotherium:

  • Health: 3900
  • Attack: 1300

Monolometrodon:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Monolorhino:

  • Armor: 20%
  • Resistance to DoT: 0%
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Monolophosaurus:

  • Health: 3600

Monolophosaurus:

  • Health: 3600
  • Speed: 128

Mortem Rex:

  • Health: 4800
  • Speed: 109
  • Cleansing impact → Devour
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 50%
  • Resistance to Swap prevention: 100%
  • Resistance to Stun: 100%

Nodopatotitan:

  • Health: 5500
  • Speed: 106

Pterovexus:

  • Class changed to Cunning/Fierce
  • Speed: 130
  • Pinning Strike → Fierce Strike
  • Minor Swoop → Lethal Swoop
  • Nullifying Impact → Nullifying rampage
  • Resist to Rend: 0%
  • Deceleration Resistance: 50%

Quetzorion:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Refrenantem:

  • Attack: 1500
  • Speed; 126
  • Super Distraction → Venomous Blast
  • Alert Counter Distraction → Venomous Counter
  • Critical Reduction Resistance: 0%
  • Resistance to DoT: 0%
  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Scaphotator:

  • Health: 3600
  • Damage: 1200
  • Critical: 15%
  • Minor Swoop → Ferocious Strike
  • Emergency Heal → Greater Emergency Heal
  • Resistance to Deceleration: 75%
  • Resistance to Distraction: 50%

Secodontosaurus:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Spinoconstrictor:

  • Health: 3750
  • Speed: 124
  • Evasive Stance → Sidestep
  • Resistance to Stun: 67%
  • Resistance to Taunt: 100%
  • On-Escape Evasive Strike → On Escape Evasive Impact

Stegosaurus:

  • Speed: 106
  • Armor: 25%
  • Group decelerating Strike → Group Decelerating Rampage

Suchomimus:

  • Speed 124

Tarbosaurus:

  • Health: 4750
  • Damage: 1800

Tragodistis:

  • Speed: 116
  • Group Decelrating Strike → Group Decelerating rampage
  • Group taunting Shields → Group Invincibility

Tryostronix:

  • Resistance to Rend: 0%

Woolly Mammoth:

  • Health: 4800
  • Attack: 1200
  • Speed: 108
  • Armor: 20%

Woolly Rhino:

  • Attack: 1200
2 Likes

For some reason I can’t upload more photos. I’ll get back to you once/if I can.

Also most of the Creature Changes were just eliminating Rend Resist. Not sure why I didn’t just list it as a Universal Change.

This is really well made ngl. And i fully agree that the largest problem is the large amount of resilant creatures vs fierce and cunning. We need way more fierce creatures to counteract the resilants

The resilients are good, but not all of the abilities you listed are resilient abilities. Part of the problem of the class system as it is now is that Ludia seems reluctant to make mixed classes with moves from other classes. Instead of picking a class and giving it moves that fit that class, they should build a creature from the ground up and assign it a class that describes it’s moves.

I might change it to simply bypass dodge, not remove it. But then there would need to be new Resilient moves added that did remove dodge (maybe “Thagomizer”?). I would keep the removal of speed increase though.

Cleansing deceleration doesn’t work. If you’re initially faster than the resilient and they slow you, they’ll still get to attack you before you can attack again to cleanse the decel - they already got what they wanted. Leaving fierce moves alone but giving more fierce dinos immunity to decel (e.g. Spinosaurs, crocodiles, Pterosaurs, etc.) is a better way to help fierce against deceleration.

Vulnerability is FAR more common on resilients. The only pure fierce with that ability are Purussaurus and Purussaurus G2. Now they could give more fierce vulnerability, but that might mess with a lot of things. Many resilients that do have vulnerability (like Ankylosaurs) aren’t the broken ones, so I don’t think they need to be changed.

I do like most of your other changes though!

1 Like

I spent a lot of the rest of the post on giving Fierce Creatures more of a hand in Vulnerability. Mostly the new creatures and the new hybrids, really.

The Cleansing Decel Bit is meant to go something like how things usually play out with Mutual Fury. You take a hit, get slowed, cleanse, take another hit, and then whack them for a million.

Giving things more Immunity to Decel would result in more stuff like Nitro Thors, which I just find to be extremely stupid.

1 Like

I saw that, I’m just not sure if it’s a great idea. It does kinda fit fierce, but I think it’s fine where it is now.

Except that MF also includes a speed increase and an attack boost, so it works better if you’re slowed. It still also causes you to take two hits. Against resilient attacks that only slow for one turn anyway, you really aren’t doing anything: they still got to attack you twice in a row. You take fewer hits if you just don’t get slowed in the first place.

I’m very aware of this, which is why I specifically didn’t list chompers like Thor as recipients of decel immunity, because I don’t think they should have it. But for bleeders like Spinosaurus, I don’t really see a problem. Not everything should, but more definitely can.

2 Likes

My real problem with resilients is that they remove cloak. Cloak is a move that functionally increases you damage output and initiates dodge as a SIDE positive effect. Now you can really just remove the dodge but not the cloak as it is functionally a fierce move.
(I would not have aroused this question if indom was fierce cunning, and then cloak could have been assigned as a cunning move)

2 Likes

Aye. This is my issue with Cloak as a whole. Why its a full combination and not just Dodge + Mega Ferocity is beyond me.

I couldnt get you.

:sweat_smile:

Basically why breaking the dodge also breaks the attack increase.

1 Like

In my opinion, Alioramus doesn’t deserve any Shattering and Armor Piercing moves

I suppose it’s a matter of it being a medium-ish theropod, right?

Yes that is my problem. The cloak is only the attack increase part, and dodge is separate.

No. I would fit it as a big theropod with no Armor nor Shield breaking moves

Yeah if they changed cloak to dodge + Ferocity that would be awesome. Cunnings could remove the damage boost, but not the dodge. Resilients could remove the dodge, but not the damage boost.

zhuchengtyrannus would be a cool addition to the game, but imo it should have more health (maybe 4500), more damage (1700), and a tad less speed (108)

overall the vulnerability fierce ideas are cool and fit well with the class, great ideas :100:

on a side note, Rexy should also be included in this theoretical update as a fierce, just my two cents

1 Like

I don’t quite see how that would work. Would it be like Bleeding Moves?

Also, @UnicornWizard I’m working on a Rexy Concept. I’ll stick it up somewhere later.

1 Like

Extra note: The other Hybrids are finally up there. Sorry for the wait.

Maybe that’ll work