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Vote: Should Speed Be Determined By Class? (A Vote To Change The Game Forever)

Recently in another thread Reason for arena unbalance? Eviction mentioned something about imbalance and then I replied with this idea and he elaborated and I think we may be onto something. I want to know if you all agree because with Raids being so fresh and opening up the door to potential new multiplayer content such as Dungeons and Alliance Wars I think this change of Speed implementation could be a big refresh to the way we enjoy Arena. I also would like to just say the one thing we’d have to decide is what happens with Wild Card. Maybe it could be randomized in somehow to be faster or slower via coin flip.

The basic idea of mine was speed would only matter as a number within type so the fastest Cunning creature wins, but a Cunning creature would always best a Fierce creature even if that Fierce creature had a higher speed number because the type would overtake the speed. I thought permanent might not be well received, so stated first encounter only or permanent, but permanent seems best.

Eviction made it better and stated that he would go as far as to take it into sub categories of Cunning over Cunning Fierce and Cunning Fierce over Cunning Resilent etc. I like that. I think if we push this enough we may get this one. And I really do think the overall game could benefit so it deserves its own thread.

  • Yes
  • No

0 voters

Hang on I ruined my poll… gonna remake.

I dont want to be rude so I’m not deleting it yet, but Eviction I see you’re responding. I had to remake. I shouldn’t have tried editing the original post. Now the 5 votes are gone.

To add some more to this… because I know some will say that hurts resilient Dino’s to much against the cunning creatures their supposed to beat.

Resilient could be given more armor and shielded abilities like gems shield advantage to offset the whole losing speed control aspect… say make all resilient attacks add a shield. And fierce just pierces that armor and destroys the shields.

Because cunning needs non immune fierce Dino’s in the meta to be in a better spot. But fierce Dino’s that aren’t speed immune are in a bad spot.

So people just stack teams with resilient and resilient fierce… mix in a speed immune fierce and a wild card and call it a day.

I think Ludia is just bad at balancing fierce-resilient hybrids. I don’t think there’s such a big inherent problem with them that you’d need to do something as drastic as this. A while ago I rebalanced all the Uniques so that every one of them was viable, and I didn’t have any problems with it.

Plus, bleeders are technically fierce, but the none of the Unique bleeders are good enough to be widely used. They could easily counter the resilient Uniques and the resilient-fierce ones, but Ludia just doesn’t bother making it that way. They would be countered by the cunning Uniques, completing the cycle.

9 Likes

It’s like I said in the other thread though if you look at the top meta teams their not using as many speed boosts as are being used at the other arenas or atleast the ones I played in. Dio with base speed… 110 speed trykos.

When you have so many ways to control speed the mechanic becomes less valuable… theirs a base speed phoura on the number 2 teams. If I took a guess Because it can priority a revenge kill and still be able to get out.

But that ain’t my meta… I have to invest boosts in speed if I wanna keep a positive winrate. I still run into turbo speed Thor’s not as often but I still need to contend with them.

Atleast under this system a turbo speed Thor can still be countered by a speedster without having to sacrifice health and damage I may need further up the ladder.

Isn’t Phorusaura the exception rather than the rule? It’s the only cunning creature with Instant Rampage, so it’s whole playstyle bypasses any speed differences for the most part.

As for Tryko and Dio, they do their roles just fine without speed boosts, especially Dio.

2 Likes

Well in all fairness moves can and likely will be changed in the case of Phorusaura. I would not look at current moves as a long-term permanent when we’ve seen it so much. I seriously don’t see it happening soon, but it seems like either Instant Rampage or Rampage and Run will surely go as it’s too spammy.

I’m curious. I noticed a lot of you have voted no, but why? This truly seems like a way to not simply change things up via a basic nerf and buff routine each patch. I see them becoming less needed with this. I wonder if the people voting no would rather there not be a rock papper scissors method because everyone was so high on that. So how can you like that, but not like the speed amendment to make it work better? This literally makes the current rock papper scissor set up better and it takes into account the dual classes. Wild Card can get a random speed advantage or disadvantage, making it truly Wild Card and a gamble!

What’s not to like? Really. I want to hear the community’s reasoning because something’s not adding up.

It kind of changes a mechanic that no one complained about. No one was upset that certain creatures could outspeed others regardless of class. The gripe most people have is the boost system and how it does speed. This would undermine the majority of matchups for the sake of targeting only a few creatures. Certain creatures are built to perform a different role than others in their class. The best example I can see being 1.14 indo versus other speedsters. They both did a number on fierce creatures, but indo also took on resilients well, and no one was upset by that. There are other, more obscure examples, but thats the best I can think off.

This doesn’t work because certain creatures are either fast fierce (mono and mags) or slow cunning ( Eremo and Dracocerato). They would be hard countered in ways that hurt the game by killing of a lot of possible creatures.

This also messes up the boost system. It was originally supposed to be a “fun customization element” and I’m confident Ludia harbors a wish to bring about that. This change would undermine it too, as speed boosts would effectively become useless. Nitro Thor’s in lower arenas are crutches, but in the arena’s where it’s balanced, they can be used as a strategic counter to something specific, which is why I like the boost system. It let’s players customize creatures to fit certain roles, and these changes would destroy that.

1 Like

In really simple terms I voted no because if it became even more rock, paper, scissors, the actual match play would be pointless. You may as well just draw your 4 dinos and concede if your opponent draws a team that will clearly beat yours.

3 Likes

the perfect time to use that forfeit button. oh wait… we don’t have that.

4 Likes

Speed boosts are already broken… when the top player runs 3 base speed Dino’s and another With just one tier of speed boosts and the 2nd team has literally one Dino with speed boosts applied. Their is a problem with speed. If you can literally ignore it and still be competitive at the very top of the game it’s a mechanic that’s not working.

Especially when the rest of the player base thinks speed is the be all end all of balance.

Half the complaints on these forums are that speed boosts need nerfed because their to strong. And for the lower arenas that tends to be true. But when top plays can ignore speed boosts their are issues in the mechanics.

And it’s not Just Dio, it’s base speed lanias, base speed tenoto, base speed monorhino, tryko with 1 boost, grypo with 2-3 speed boosts, phoura at base speed or one boost.

It’s a problem for Ludia cause boost purchases really only need to account for 2/3 of the offered boosts. And it’s a problem for players who spend speed to advance only in the future to need to refund them.

And it’s a trend that can trickle down fast… why play Dino’s on ladder that need speed when you can build an arena team that doesn’t. And use your Speed boosts for tournament and raid Dino’s.

The thing is that the top500 is it’s own meta, functioning drastically different from the rest of the arena. This change would also cause tourneys to be ruined in the sense that most combos wouldn’t work.

JWA would turn into base Pokémon, in the sense that it’s super easy and you just swap to what’s good against your opponent.

1 Like

Wouldn’t be anything like Pokémon just cause rinex is naturally always faster then thor wouldn’t mean it’s a good strategy to swap into a hit that’s gonna take away over half its health. Now a creature with swap in dodge would work but that’s already a thing.

Swaps are powerful in Pokémon cause of the way damage is resisted based on elements. So swapping in to absorbing a big hit is a good play. Those kind of mechanics tend to be rare in jwa.

But there are a lot of times swapping doesn’t have a defensive benefit in turn based team strategy games like Pokémon, you usually eat a (usually big) hit when swapping, and JWA is not really different

Instant Rampage is its whole thing, changing that would be a pity. It’s overall damage output ought to get nerfed though, either through base damage, other multipliers or both.
Then there’s that unnecessary stun-resistance.

1 Like

You don’t see it eventually getting nerfed? I see it getting a lengthy run before being eventually tweaked like Procerathomimus. It’ll get a nice little run, but this Instant Rampage, Rampage and Run spam where all you need is greater speed and ability to take one hit and increase speed and repeat those big moves, it’s got to change. I personally hate it when a dinosaur is only played one way. More ways to play gives more fun and range to the game. That’s just me. Everyone doesn’t have to agree with that, but when you know exactly what’s going to happen each time.

At least when you have something like Suchotator, just as an example, there are so many ways someone could play something like that, but with two rampages you shouldn’t get to run away and bring it back only to get priority AGAIN. That’s just crazy. It’s far too much and that’s just one creature. That’s like a guaranteed two kills so if you have a solid other three… it’s really pushing it.

It’s the opposite of some dinosaurs swapping in and you know you’re going to kill it and it’s a trade off. If it were a trade off thing like with Dracoceratops I would be better with it, but it’s not.

You know. I would also like to say… to the people who keep mentioning boosts, you could always have Ludia do what was rumored to be coded into the game, but not used, I’m not sure, but it was long rumored that they were planning to introduce Critical Chance boosts and Armor boosts. I support this. Even if they converted Speed boosts into these, split. I really would rather keep Speed boosts, but there are so many ways to look at this, but the rock paper scissors aspect would not be broken because the moves still matter as do the abilities.

Of course I see it getting nerfed. It’s just that right from the beginning that playstyle you described is exactly what was intended for it. There’s a reason that it’s Immune to Swap-prevention, that’s not just some cruel coincidence. There’s probably a line in the release notes somewhere supporting this.

My point is that that doesn’t have to be a bad thing. They just went too far with it.

As for variety of moves, the player is obviously going to use the best move depending on the situation. In skill tournaments Phorusaura often has to use all of its moves to have the best chance of victory, especially higher up in the rankings.

It’s just that R&R does so much damage that often players will be ready to chance any risk with the next creature and go all out. Of course, some players simply tap the move that does the most damage regardless of whether or not it’s the smart thing to do, especially in the arena, but let’s ignore those guys for a second.

If you want Phorusaura to be played differently, it’s not necessarily the playstyle that needs to change, but the damage/risk ratio. Most people would be willing to risk some damage on the next creature if it guarantees 3000+ damage (boosts), and an Instant Rampage ready to go in their back pocket. If Phorusaura had less HP, less damage, and/or faced more creatures with On Escape abilities then that would definitely change.

Having your opponent play predictably is something you can exploit too. It’s just that we don’t have a lot of ways of doing that, since Phorusaura’s counters (tanks for the most part) either don’t have swap-in/On-Escape abilities (for some reason) or are just outshined by certain other borderline OP creatures cough Mammotherium cough or pummelled by too many others.

1 Like