Ludia Forums

What's wrong again with trophy system?

For some time it worked fine but for some reason Ludia decided to “fix” it and made only worse (as usually). Now there is only ±10 or ±50, like no other trophy rewards is possible.
Why? What was the stupid reason to change it when it worked fine?

I really don’t get them. Why they always want to break something in JWA? Do they want to get achievement 100.000 bugs in one game?

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Just faced this too … complete and utter trash

50 is too high. It needs to be 30 or 40 at most.

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I am sure its a bug. The trophy loss is currently 50 and win is 10 regardless of trophies the enemy have …

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I just lost 41 trophies and won 24 from the same opponent. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

630 trophy count difference if it matters.

What is your trophy count?

Just happened to me too…lost 41 won 20 plus…ticked me off for sure

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You can lose/win anywhere from 10-50.

The loss is predicted by trophy difference and team difference. the Most frustrating part of the trophy lost is that when you trounce another team it almost makes sense you get less trophies, but when you get trounced it seems you always lose near the max.

In my experience around lockdown / Sorna, when I lose I lose between 25-30 odd trophies. When I win it usually is the same, except when I’ve had two straight losses and I fight a bot, I get 11-17 trophies. So for me, at my level it seems stable. I’m fluctuating between 2800-3100 trophies.

Your mileage may vary. I think it’s trophy slaughter at the 3500 plus range for a lot of players.

I also see +51 +52. Yeah, my scores. And I’m getting 30 odd as usual now. Still playing in 1.7.27

I’m only receiving 10 trophies for every win, but losing many more for every loss. I used to be able to stay over 5,000 trophies, but if this keeps up I’ll end up in Lockwood!

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Good luck! Good lord… why haven’t you opened those incubators… It’s too tempting for me to NOT press the buttons.

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I had the same situation. 3 epic incubators ready to activate, but was aiming for the fourth. but got weak and started opening them :smiley:

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That’s me In a nutshell.

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When Ankylosaurus and Erlikosaurus were the daily mission reward I didn’t want to miss a day so I only opened shorter incubators. Now I’m trying to get four 24-hour ones just because! :grin:

I forgot to add that I did boost my entire team, but I never used real money to do so. I used saved hardcash to buy boosts when they were available in the store, but I ran out of that on the last day boosts were available in the store so I was only able to buy a pack of health boosts. I didn’t take part in the boost exploit. None of my team is ridiculously boosted. My highest boost is on my Tryostronix at tier 5 to make up for the low health and to increase attack. Speed is tier 3. Could the boosts be the reason why I only get 10 trophies per win? I still get obliterated by those who have higher boosted/leveled creatures.

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No, boosts are completely irrelevant. I have a fully boosted team, here comes hate, and I won 52 and 51 trophies. I received 8, lost 30, and gained a 40. It’s RNG. Random. Haha

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It’s garbage; I agree. Losing 50 points to three opponents straight, all of whom got all the RNGs, only to turn around and get the RNGs, but win only 10, is terrible. I hate the battle system now.

But, as for “what’s wrong again with the trophy system?”: while the current system is the worst, the previous system was also very flawed, and I’ve been calling for a revision for months. The problem is that the relative points won/lost in the previous system weren’t always appropriate given the matchups. My feeling is that the matchups were never the real issue, moreso, the points gained/lost.

The nerdy bits here are that trophy awards in both systems are based on a modified Elo Rating/Ranking system, which essentially counts net wins to come up with a final score, and where individual matches are scored based on how closely you perform based on an expected outcome, with more points awarded or lost for beating the odds, and fewer points where you perform as expected. Straightforward, and relatively easy to communicate to players. In the pre-1.7 system, that “expected outcome” was solely based on your gap in trophies vs. your opponents. In games like chess, where it’s commonly used, there are really no variables to influence the score other than a) wins/losses overall, and b) number of games won/lost against a specific opponent. That last bit is a key point, too, because it factors-in your under/overperforming when matched against a specific opponent, which is entirely feasible in a game like chess (where you can schedule matches). Using a modified Elo, as JWA does and did in pre-1.7, was flawed because a) if there was some measure of your outcomes vs. a specific opponent, it wasn’t apparent (@cincydave99, I swear, I’ve battled you a hundred times now, haha!), but most importantly, b) JWA has FAR more variables in-play aside from W/L ratio and trophies, such as, oh, I dunno, creature level, creature attributes (i.e. immune; has armor; etc.), type, and the rest of the RNG basket (cloak, stun, crit, and I might as well mention, the match timeout goblin). Theoretically, the more you play (in either system), the more you get a normal distribution of opponents, creature matchups, and RNG, such that your skill level is shown appropriately in your trophy score.

Except that it just didn’t work (or, it mostly worked okay, but when it failed, it FAILED). There were too many outlier situations, where you’d face a player around 200 trophies below you, but with a team that was all 2-3 levels above you. You might go 0-3 against this player because of team imbalance, along with RNG fails, and bang, you’ve lost 50% more points than average and barely got a hit in. Or, your opponent vomits-out that irritating, no-good, very bad, game parasite, Dracoceratops. Infuriating. Again, Elo Rating is flawed here because there are so many variables.

Enter 1.7, where Ludia - rightly - began to factor-in team strength to scoring as a way of making the points awards more fair. Conceptually, this is an awesome step, and one that I’ve been crowing-about for ages. But, the implementation was a major fail; specifically this “factoring-in” doesn’t seem to be adequately weighting the actual damage potential of opponents’ creatures vs. your creatures, regardless of boosts. When you add the effect of the runaway train that is stat boosts, though, you’ve got a 1-2 punch that broke the battle system, period. If they weren’t calculating creature strength appropriately in the first place (sorry guys, you got it wrong), the boost effects just magnified an already glaring miscalculation. Putting a collar on trophy wins/losses did little to fix things overall. The math should have been better in the first place, and that’s what we’re all seeing.

A small part of the angst we’re having lately is that we’re in this new battle system, and the disruption is a result of us all “normalizing” to the new system. There’s always some friction in those situations, just like in the first days of the original tournaments, where it was a bloodbath for most as it took a while for things to normalize. If 1.7’s changes were permanent, we would all, over time, settle into our new brackets/ranking, and things would feel normal-ish. But this friction, I think, is only a tiny part of the angst, since every part of the system has been shaken up: points are irrational (esp. in the beginning); leveling and DNA are irrelevant; matchups of creatures whose balance in the game was kept somewhat in check by speed tiers are now totally out the window (I mean, come on, >190 speed? SMH).

So, to wrap-up my blathering, the revision to points awarded to account for creature strength was a good great and sorely needed change in concept, but sadly, the execution was poor. Ludia not only got the math wrong, but they never should have released two game-changers to battling at one time. Even if you get the math right, doing both at once is a bad decision.


Footnote: Elo also assumes zero-sum outcomes (i.e. the points you win vs. those lost by the opponent are equal in absolute magnitude, so the net effect to the game tally is zero). I’m not sure JWA needs to be zero sum, TBH. Sure, the 40K trophies marks from early tournaments are an example of what happens without a zero-sum constraint, but you can always do a graduated scale, and I think they should. The only downside that I see is that a graduated zero-sum situation actually makes advancing to higher tiers much harder than just gaining, say, 10 points to advance. But I’d take that.

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I have 5400+ trophies and went up against Dr. Nizam this afternoon, which by the way has over 6K trophies. Lost 3-0 to his 199 speed lvl 30 Thor. Lost 10 trophies. Lol.
The question is why was I figthing a Top 15 player?

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Your going be battling a lot of much lower level opponents who were able to buy the boosts and boost there teams to the max, so your going to most likely lose to them and you will lose the maximum 50 majority of the time since the boosts problem I’ve gone from 4900+ at one point now down to 4300 I’ve lost 400+ today alone

In one battle that i played, win the normal trophies not sure but they were 27 and lost 31
maybe a bug with you

Whatever you do, don’t contact support! They’ll only tell you that it’s completely normal.