Ludia Forums

Why is PvE Sooo Hard, or is it?

#1

Caution potentially long data filled post ahead…

There are a lot of posts around the forums about how hard PvE can be or at least the crazy match ups that you are given as you are attempting to complete certain events such as “Fight for Fusion”, “Fight for Funds”, or the dreaded unlock events like “What Lies Beneath”.

This post is going to attempt to pull back the curtain on the potential underlying code that is deriving your match ups and what you might be able to do to improve your odds. This is for the events that are indexed on your individual lineups and are not the same for large groups of people.

Ferocity, this is the key or at least it seems to be based on the data I have collected, if you do not understand what Ferocity is or how to calculate it please read this post first: The De-Mystifying of Ferocity... Hopefully :) before continuing on with this post.

Now that you understand what Ferocity is and how to calculate it you need to take a look at your different groupings of creatures Aquatic, Cenozoic, and Jurassic. The reason you need to look at each one individually is that the events are keyed to each group based on the creatures they are requiring you to use to complete said event. So if “Fight for Fusion” is using Jurassic creatures it is using your Jurassic line up to determine your match ups.

I believe the game coding is limited and shared across both PvP and PvE or at least certain aspects. For instance in PvP if I bring a team Average Ferocity Score (AFS) of 4,161.9. Which is derived by taking the ferocity of each member on the team and finding the average across them:

Health Attack Ferocity
slot 1 2,042 638 4,083.60
slot 2 1,110 1,041 4,441.20
slot 3 1,881 650 3,961.00
Average Ferocity Score = 4,161.93

I will generally get matched up against a bot that has + or - 5% AFS or 4,370 on the high end to 3,954 on the low end on average. This makes for a fairly winnable match once you know your way around the class advantages and bot behavior. There are times that the game will throw a supper easy match (-30% to -40%) your way or supper hard match (+30% to +40%), but typically you are looking at an opponent with an AFS within 5% of yours.

Now this doesn’t mean your class advantages are what you are looking for (since your are blind to this when making your selection in PvP) but on a raw calculation, meaning no advantages or disadvantages, you will be within 5% on average to your opponent. I might need to do an entire PvP post but for now going back to PvE.

So now that we know AFS is calculated for your team by averaging out your three creatures on your team to come up with a team score, we can pull back the curtain on PvE. The issue with PvE is the game does not understand how to look at your ever growing fleet of creatures in each group, and it has now way to tell if you are a player that has been playing for 2-3 months or 2-3 years when it comes to PvE matching. I want to stress this is my opinion based on what I have seen and been able to record by looking at not only my own battles but looking at other posts that had the information I needed as well as videos online from the gamingbeaver and pulling data on his battles and match ups.
What it does know how to do is look at your top three creatures in each group. Just about everyone has 3 creatures, and 3 creatures is all you need for any standard battle, so for better or worse the game indexes off of your top three creatures in each group.

So if you remember in the Ferocity post my graph of the varying levels of Ferocity is where you can run afoul to your PvE match ups.
Here is my current line up for Jurassic:


When I first saw the Indoraptor I was smitten and had to have it so I did every event I could to gather the SDNA to get one and was so excited when I hatched it, thinking now I have a heavy hitter that can really help me in my PvE. This however was a sad day as at the time when I got my first lvl 10 Indoraptor I think my next closest creature was my Ostaposaurus lvl 30, all of a sudden my top Jurassic AFS shot up and with each additional Indoraptor I hatched did the same thing. One day I got greedy and evolved 2 lvl 10s into a level 20 and at that time I now had a level 20, and a level 10 Indoraptor plus a lvl 30 Ostaposaurus as the make up of my AFS score for PvE.

Health Attack Ferocity
Ostaposaurus lvl 30 3639 1390 8087.0
Indoraptor lvl 10 5103 2658 13608.6
Indoraptor lvl 20 6764 3554 18136.8
Average Ferocity Score = 13277.5

Which is a great score if I had the rest of my creatures to back this score up, but I didn’t. So I was able to do the first event in a PvE match up but then the next two battles my best creatures are now on a cool down for the next day or more unless I wanted to speed up the wait time to complete an event.

All of the standard weekly events listed here will vary but the general idea holds true for them.
Based on averages of the events over multiple weeks:

Event 1st Battle 2nd Battle 3rd Battle
On The Tides 2% Adv Flat 2% DisAdv
Fight for Fusion 4% Adv 1% Adv 7% DisAdv
Fight for Funds 5% Adv 5% Adv 1% DisAdv
Monsters of The Deep Flat 4% DisAdv 1% DisAdv
Stakeholders Visit Flat 2% DisAdv 1% DisAdv
It’s a Whiteout 5% Adv 5% Adv 3% Adv
Claim Your Territory Flat 2% Adv 2% Adv

You can see that while they vary most of them are + or - the 5% difficulty on Ferocity of their team vs my best team for the given group of creatures. Which is similar to PvP except here you get to plan out your battle and pick your class advantages if you have the creatures to do so.

Now where it gets real hairy is in the unlock events:

Event 1st Battle 2nd Battle 3rd Battle
What Lies Beneath 15% DisAdv 22% Dis Adv 30% DisAdv
Glacial Shift 20% DisAdv 25% DisAdv 30% DisAdv

You need to have class advantages for these but at least these events are generally over 3-4 days to complete so you have the ability depending on your bench to battle through these.

For the non standard battle events (the ones that take 5 battles):

Event 1st Battle 2nd Battle 3rd Battle 4th Battle 5th Battle
VIP Golden Pack 60% Adv 50% Adv 35% Adv 18% Adv 5% Adv
Clash of Titans 1% DisAdv 8% DisAdv 12% DisAdv 20% DisAdv 15% DisAdv

So what does all of this mean?
It means you need to keep your creature bench progressing together in each group. If you keep your top 12-16 creatures within close proximity of each other relatively speaking and you have a good mix of classes within them, you should be good to go with all of your PvE wishes. However you must keep in mind cool downs of those creatures for as you progress down the dark hole of end game battles you will start to run into creatures with multiple day cool downs which means your bench needs to be even bigger unless you are planing on spending some Dino Bucks on the speed up of cool downs.

For me since I have frozen my top three and continued to build my bench up to those three top creatures my PvE has become doable as well as fun again. So you can either take the long way and build up your team to support your top three or you can take the short cut and sell off one or two of your top creatures if you have something way out in front and doing so will bring your PvE back in line. I just couldn’t bring myself to do that with my Indoraptors.

To Ludia:
I know that at the end of the day your game has to make money in order to keep it running which I am all for. I know you have the ability to index the battles off of a greater range than the 5% + or - based on what I have seen in the VIP Golden pack battles, it would be great if you used the same approach for some of the other daily battles again using the top three as an index but making the first battle a larger advantage to the player like 20-25%, with the second battle being 5-10% advantage, and the third being 0-5% disadvantage. This would allow folks to use a wider range of their creatures in those daily battles. Just food for thought.

If this post has been helpful please give it a like.
I look forward to the discussions this thread might have below.

10 Likes
Dino lvls way too high
#2

I’d give this post a 100 likes, but alas, i can only give 1

3 Likes
#3

Like it a lot although I only read it once so far and did not understand everything. I am more an intuitive kind of player and not as analytical as you are (don’t like to be analytical in games because I am mathematician in real life, so this way of thinking controls most if my job life). I like playing for recreation.
I will for sure read it several times and will try to adjust my playing accordingly. Unfortunately some awareness is a little bit too late since I made a level 30 indoraptor which makes some fights incredibly hard, but I am absolutely not willing to sell it.
Thanks a lot.

4 Likes
#4

@Sionsith big thanks again. When I first joined the forum you gave me some similar advice and I’ve been building my teams accordingly (in conjunction with the ferocity calculation which you also gave us). Now the only trouble I have is when the bot get a little too smart. Friday I had one that was saving, blocking 4-5 times, just always seeming to have the perfect counter to whatever moves I made.

@Tommi and anyone else who’s had this happen. I did sell my top, way overpowered, dino as I couldn’t compete in any PvE that was coming along. Since the rest of my team was close in fereocity it did bring everything back in line. It hurt to do it but it was that or walk away from the game. Of course my top at the time wasn’t near what you’ve got.

3 Likes
#5

I’ve sort of had the same problem now that I’ve got to lv10 indoraptors. So what I’m considering at the moment, is selling one, and each time I get enough SDNA to buy another, buy it and sell it again. Because 40,000 dna for one lv10 indoraptor is a lot, and can help me build up my other dinosaurs.

2 Likes
#6

Or just leave your SDNA alone until your other dinos are up to par. SDNA in this game won’t go bad or rot. You use them for indoraptors or other superhybrids as and when you wish.

1 Like
#7

As I started playing missions were very rare, not 2 or three every day, but 2 in a week. Tournaments were unknown. Main purpose was to hatch and evolve.
In the first months I was not able to succeed in more than 20% of the missions, so I always thought that the concept of the game was to collect as many dinos as possible and to make them as strong as possible.
In time I had more success, after a year I was able to win nearly every mission.
The new philosophy, more fights and punishment for being stronger with some dinos, became relevant approximately 10 months ago.
From my point of view nowadays the game is more and more focused on fighting and not on hatching and evolving.
Look at the post from @Sharpestedge_15g. There is something wrong with the balance of the game if some of us are afraid to evolve or even hatch dinos.
Missions should be challenging, but they may not lead to a point where players could no longer use the game to experience the fascination of creating a new and especially evolve dinos.
I’ve posted once or twice (or more) that I would be far more interested in new classes of creatures (Insects) as in more and more challenging or impossible to fulfill (Code 19, opponents with health over 20k and with more than 9k attack) features.

2 Likes
#8

Tommi, you’ve been around long enough to witness the before and after of Ludia’s change around 10-12 months ago pegging opponent strength to top dino. I fully agree, Ludia needs to consider significant recalibration here. How to integrate superhybrids with VIP and regular dinos together in an ecosystem where battles are still reasonable and other dinos don’t slip into irrelevance. As I’ve postulated before, if we keep going with this superhybrid trend, very soon, if not already, as Tommi has experienced, even level 40 VIPs are becoming less and less useful, even useless in some instances.

3 Likes
#9

My reply to you got flagged, don’t know why, but I agree very much with what you said.

1 Like
#10

I saw your answer and appreciate it very much.
Flagging happens from time to time, maybe if we use some keywords to activate the forum filter. Usually the post is released in no time after a brief check up.

1 Like
#11

The restricted tourneys have potential, imho. Somehow, if they can work that into more of the daily battles, I think that’ll help keep the game playable and enjoyable for players of various stages of maturity. Those who have earned superhybrids should be rewarded, not punished. Yet, we can’t just have the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer either, so things need to be built in for late comers to catch up somewhat, with effort and grind, of course. The more I write, the more this seems like social politics in our real world! But, like you said, there’s the battling side of the game, then also the hatching and collecting a variety of dinos, which too is fun and educational for enthusiasts. Hope someone who is an agent of change reads our comments.

3 Likes
#12

@DinoStan and @Tommi until the whales stop paying to play this most likely won’t change. It is the set up the developers have chosen. I read the tournament threads (number of wins, creatures required as various levels) and have come to the conclusion that tournaments aren’t worth my time or resources right now. I have no chance of getting the top prize so what’s the point of frustrating myself. Then even if by some miracle I did win the dino would tank my line up making the game unplayable.

1 Like
#13

The predator and hunter league prizes are great for a newer player since you get two of either a super rare or legendary depending on which bracket you end up in.

Those can go a long way in helping complete daily items as well as bolstering your line up for future tournaments.

2 Likes
#14

I do like how the restricted tournaments are bringing back unused creatures into the forefront, for instance the Jurassic Rares only or the Super Rare only Aquatic tournament. It will be interesting to see how this continue to unfold. Seem to see a lot of people complaining on how they cant use there best Creatures in a tournament but I am hoping they are just the vocal minority and that Ludia will continue forward with the rules based tournaments sprinkled in among the other tournaments. After recording so many matches and since fixing my bad line up from an imbalance stance I am okay with how they have it now. That doesnt mean it couldn’t use improvement but now that I understand the mechanics I can chart a course forward under those mechanics that allows me to continue to progress through the different levels of creatures. I go slower now than before but I can keep moving forward, and the game is still fun from a match up stand point. I am looking forward to the creatures with 20,000 health but can wait until my bench is ready for it.

1 Like
#15

You know what the ideal rules tournament could be? Commons only, no hybrids.
One can dream.

1 Like
#16

I have enjoyed most of the rules tournaments as well, the exception being the Rare-only one. Rares with no hybrids would be a good one, I think. There is just too much discrepancy between the top-level rares and the hybrids. I think a common-only tournament would have the same issue.

1 Like
#17

I’d say the restricted tourneys work better when each player is diagnosed according to what s/he has available within that restriction. I didn’t make it to dominator in that Jurassic rare-only tourney, perhaps because I only had one level 40 of each of the rare hybrids available, and the AI brought opponents that overwhelmed all but my strongest trios (sort of). Had I, say, a fleet of level 30s instead of fewer 40s, I would’ve fared better, but then, there’s no turning back in this game unless you sell off and start over. The later restricted tourneys were more reasonable, so let’s hope those latter two set the pace from now on.

1 Like
#18

@Sionsith I was more thinking of the Catch 22 tournaments seem to be. You have to win to unlock a high end creature but to have many high ends to win.

I would love to see more restricted or rules tournaments or events including no hybrid ones. Something that involves testing ability rather than just a measuement of who has the most stuff. Could you imagine a non-hybrid common only event? (Extreme example I know.) We’d be dusting off our Utahraptors.

2 Likes
#19

I think the idea of a Commons/No Hybrids tournament is really interesting, and would definitely focus more on skill vs. time in the game. Although you’d have to lock out cool-downs as well for that, and not sure that’s going to happen. But otherwise the more advanced players that can easily rack up bucks in the game will still have the advantage over new players.

#20

True but an event instead of a tournament could do the trick